Astus wrote:Do those visions occur without any instruction or method whatsoever?
They may arise to some people without instructions. However, they will not develop beyond a very limited threshold which is only the very first stage of the first vision. Practically anybody can reach that. However, the characteristics of the visions of Thôgel is that they increase throughout the path until a stage in which they reach their full measure. This will never occur to anyone without proper instruction.
If yes, then there's little point in teaching it.
In fact it's no, not in the way the visions develop. Do you understand what these visions are ?
If no, how are they not conceptual constructs?
because they are the expression of the dynamism of Rigpa (rig-pa'i rtsal). This is not something that one can experience within the ordinary confines of the mind.
True, during the creation stage one methodically and regularly needs to build up the visualisation, while in thogal one needs to let it unfold into a complex vision, and I'm not debating this difference in the method.
Ok, but do you see the difference ?
However, normal dreams are not intentionally created by oneself, still they are understood as conceptual constructs.
It's because they are the product of karmic causes. THogel visions are not such products.
Everyday experience of houses, trees, people, etc. are not intentionally created, but they are also conceptual constructs.
Sure,these are impure karmic perceptions. Thogel visions are pure.
Even the language is not something one creates for oneself, but it is clearly a conceptual construct.
Thogel visions have nothing to do with something that is limited diachronically such as language.
Visions of shamans and mystiques are not taken to be their own imagination, but they are mental creations nevertheless.
yes but these are not Thogel visions. There is a difference between such visions of a shaman and the thogel visions of a practitioner of thogel. Not every thing that is described as a vision is a Thogel vision. Despite their gigantic variety, there is a typology of the thogel visions.
Visions in thogal have a special status based on the idea that because one remains in rigpa, it is not one's own doing. However, remaining in rigpa does not eliminate the six senses, does it?
No, but the visions are not objects of the senses. If you close your eyes, they arise anyway. They arise in the dark where your senses cannot perceive anything. They are not objects of the senses.
Still, lights, noises, etc. are not given any special status there, they are not the natural unfolding of the nature of mind.
They are karmic perceptions. THogel visions are not like this.