1 Monday, 10 May 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.34 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. We apologise that it was not
6 possible to start on time because of the competing demands on the
7 courtroom. We come now today to a fresh witness. And before that, I
8 understand, Mr. Petrovic, you have a motion.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I would
10 like to introduce Dr. Janko Vilicic who is an expert of the Defence and
11 one of our co-workers in the area that will be discussed today. So we
12 would kindly ask the Trial Chamber for permission to have Dr. Vilicic
13 present during the evidence today so that he could help us with his
14 expertise regarding the evidence we will hear today. Thank you.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now, has the notice of the 10th of May
16 been filed, Mr. Petrovic?
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have filed that.
18 It is already filed with the Registry. If it hasn't been filed already,
19 it will be so very soon.
20 JUDGE PARKER: The issue of significance is to ensure that
21 Dr. Vilicic is aware of the requirements as to confidentiality of the
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has
24 familiarised Dr. Vilicic with this in great detail. Dr. Vilicic has taken
25 upon himself all obligations stemming from that, and he will abide by any
1 instructions given to him by the Trial Chamber.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE PARKER: In the circumstances, of course he may be with you
5 in the courtroom during the evidence of relevant experts called by the
7 Mr. Weiner, is it, that's going to stand?
8 MS. SOMERS: Actually, it is both. Your Honour, thank you very
9 much. I will turn the leading of the evidence over to Mr. Weiner,
10 assisted by Ms. Mahindaratne, and I just wanted to let the Chamber know
11 that I will not physically be in the courtroom during much of it but
12 confident things will be fine. Thank you.
13 JUDGE PARKER: We will miss you.
14 MS. SOMERS: That's mutual.
15 JUDGE PARKER: You've become part of our lives.
16 Mr. Weiner.
17 MR. WEINER: The Prosecution's next witness is Lieutenant Colonel
18 Jozef Poje.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Would you be kind enough to take
21 the card of affirmation and make the affirmation.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Please be seated.
25 WITNESS: JOZEF POJE
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.
3 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
4 Examined by Mr. Weiner:
5 Q. Would you state your name, please.
6 A. Jozef Poje.
7 Q. Where do you live, sir?
8 A. I live in Ljubljana in the Republic of Slovenia.
9 Q. Could you tell us how you're employed.
10 A. I work at the centre of military schools of the Ministry of
11 Defence of the Republic of Slovenia.
12 Q. Now, sir, we've seen your resume, your background, and I just want
13 you to comment on two points. Have you ever taught mortar targeting?
14 A. From 1978 until 1991, I was an instructor or teacher at the
15 artillery school in Zadar. That is where I taught controlling and
16 directing gunfire to the cadets of the reserve officers school of the
17 military academy and the attendees of the course for military artillery
18 battalion commanders.
19 Q. Since 1991, have you taught targeting in relation to mortars?
20 A. In 1991, I left the Yugoslav People's Army, and I got a job in the
21 Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Slovenia. From 1992 until the
22 present day, at the military schools centre of the Ministry of Defence, I
23 have been teaching artillery rules of combat -- rules of artillery combat
24 and rules of artillery firing.
25 In addition to that, I teach topographic and geodesic securing of
1 artillery mortar units, because for three years I taught military
2 geography and military topography.
3 Q. Thank you, sir. Colonel, while you served in the Yugoslav
4 People's Army, did you co-author any books in relation to artillery?
5 A. Like any other teacher, I had the duty, like all others, to write
6 textbooks and the like. In 1990 -- in 1985 and in 1986, a decree came
7 from the artillery department of the General Staff of the Yugoslav
8 People's Army to make a new rule book of artillery firing. This was
9 entrusted to the artillery school, namely, the department for the theory
10 and rules of firing. I was a member of that team which worked on this --
11 these artillery rules of firing. We finished the draft in 1988.
12 Q. And was that book ever printed, sir?
13 A. That book, I mean the rules of artillery firing, the draft, the
14 draft was sent to units in order to have these rules checked out in
15 practice. In 1991, this rule came back from the reviser, the proofreader,
16 too, but I left the Yugoslav People's Army before this was printed. It
17 was supposed to come out of print in 1991.
18 Q. Okay. Now, sir, can you tell us -- or tell the Court what a
19 mortar is.
20 A. A mortar is an artillery piece which is intended to neutralise and
21 destroy personnel and weapons, and also to deal with the entire theatre of
22 war as such.
23 Q. Does it fire at certain angles?
24 A. The main characteristic is to use angles from 45 to 85 degrees,
25 and that is the basic difference between a mortar and other artillery
2 Q. Sir, I'd like to show you two photographs. Would you look at
3 them. Sir, do you recognise the weapons depicted in those photographs?
4 A. In these photographs, we can see an 82-millimetre mortar and a
5 120-millimetre mortar, M75.
6 Q. And are those fair and accurate representations of those
7 particular mortars, the 82- and 120-millimetre mortars?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. WEINER: I'd like to offer those, please.
10 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.
11 MR. WEINER:
12 Q. Now, sir, how many parts does a mortar consist of?
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner --
14 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry.
15 JUDGE PARKER: -- would you pause a moment. We're bringing up the
16 relevant record.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The 120-millimetre mortar is P175 -- I'm sorry,
18 P179, and the 82-millimetre mortar is P180.
19 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
20 Q. Now, sir, how many parts does a mortar consist of?
21 A. The main parts of a mortar are the barrel, the bi-pod, and its
22 sighting equipment. Also, we should include reserve tools and equipment,
23 although that is not an integral part of the mortar itself.
24 Q. Is the base plate an integral part of the mortar?
25 A. Yes. The barrel, the bi-pod, the base plate, and the sighting
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. Let's talk about the sighting equipment. How many components does
3 mortar sighting equipment have?
4 A. The sighting equipment roughly consists of two parts.
5 Q. And what are they used for?
6 A. Sighting equipment is used in order to measure the angle and of
7 targeting and also for barrel elevation.
8 Q. Now, the angle of targeting, does that refer to direction?
9 A. The angle of targeting is actually the azimuth of targeting. So
10 this can be calculated in different ways; through mathematics and also
11 through firing equipment, and also even through a special kind of
12 evaluation. So basically, the direction of fire is the azimuth, and in
13 some way we measure the angle that the gunner at the mortar will use and
14 then target an objective, a target.
15 When the angle is measured and when the barrel is focused on a
16 distant point or a particular target, that means that the barrel is facing
17 the direction of the intended target, that is to say the azimuth of
19 Q. Thank you. Now, when you're targeting for direction on azimuth,
20 do you move the barrel from side to side or do you elevate it up and
21 down? Strictly for direction or azimuth.
22 A. When taking an angle, that means taking the direction or azimuth.
23 That means that it is moved left and right within a circle of 360 degrees.
24 Q. Now, could you tell us, how do you plot the direction of a target?
25 A. When the angle for the target is calculated in some way, then that
1 particular -- that particular angle is found on the sighting equipment,
2 and then the barrel and the mortar are moved in order to face the pickets
3 and to sight the pickets. At the moment when we targeted the mortar by --
4 vis-a-vis the pickets, that means that we have taken the right azimuth of
5 targeting with the artillery piece itself.
6 Q. All right. Let's take it step-by-step. There are many parts that
7 you just gave us. Let's begin:
8 How do you determine the direction of the target? What's the
9 first step you make? Do you use a map? Do you use your eyesight? Do you
10 use binoculars? What do you use?
11 A. The azimuth of targeting can be determined in several ways; either
12 by calculation, or graphically, or by using eyesight. Mathematically it
13 can be calculated usually on the basis of coordinates, the coordinates of
14 the firing position and of the target with using different patterns and
15 also trigonometrical values of functions. Also, it is possible to use a
16 pocket calculator with or without a programme. In artillery, for example,
17 we used an HP25, for instance. That is one way.
18 Another way is to handle this graphically. In order to
19 graphically determine the azimuth of firing is to use M56, that is to say
20 equipment for controlling and directing fire. If it is necessary, I can
21 give a brief explanation of this.
22 Using this equipment is actually carried out on a plancet. This
23 is actually a piece of paper at a ratio of 1:12.500 or 1:25.000. Firing
24 positions are marked on that as well as observation posts and the target.
25 As for the firing position, the azimuth of the basic direction is plotted
1 there. That is what we received from our superior officer in the orders
2 we received. And also, there has to be a protractor in order to show the
3 angle involved.
4 Once we have received the target and once we've marked it on the
5 plancet with a needle, from the firing position we lean the so-called
6 elementary device, that is a particular device used for determining the
7 range or distance of firing and also the angle. So once we have used this
8 elementary device along the needle that depicts the target, and we start
9 it from the firing position, then we can read the protractor to see what
10 the angle for this target is. That is one of the ways in which this can
11 be done, graphically.
12 Another way is through a different device for firing distribution
13 -- fire distribution. It consists of two basic elements, a base plate and
14 also a round protractor.
15 Q. As you're looking for that, sir, when you indicated you used a
16 plancet, is that a grid map? Is that commonly referred to as a grid map?
17 A. A plancet is actually a map but with a grid only, without any
18 other elements of the map on it. So no geographical or topographical
19 elements on it. So it's just a piece of paper, as I said, just a copy of
20 the coordinate system or grid.
21 Q. Now, you indicated that you turn the --
22 A. I can show this here, perhaps, on the overhead projector.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. That is the snopar for determining targets of -- elements of
25 targeting. That is the piece of equipment that is used for fire
1 distribution. It can be used together with a map but it can also be used
2 without a map. The procedures for determining elements of targeting can
3 differ to a certain extent.
4 When a map is used, we plot the firing position, the observation
5 post, and the target. We use a line to bring together the firing position
6 and the target in the following way: The length would have to exceed by 2
7 or 3 centimetres the disk involved. You see the circle here? That is the
8 disk. So this other part is the base.
9 When we use a map and this device, then we also use the disk. Of
10 course the disk has to be prepared for determining the elements for
12 I'm going back to the map now. So on the map I have a firing
13 position, an observation post, and the target, and I have this line that
14 links the two together, the firing position and the target. Then there is
15 the disk, which I put with its centre on the firing position, the centre
16 of the firing position. So this is the basic thing that a mortar unit
17 uses, regardless of whether it's a platoon or a company or whatever.
18 We put the disk north.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. WEINER: Now, sir, rather than describe this for the record,
21 I'll get a photocopy of it at the break, Your Honour.
22 Q. Now, once you use these two methods, whether it's the protractor
23 or this snopar method, and you get an angle, you indicated that you then
24 turn the mortar towards a post or a pole. Are you talking about
25 surveyor's poles, surveyor poles, those white poles that surveyors use in
1 the streets? That type of a pole?
2 A. Well, we call them pickets. It's a pole. It's a piece of wood in
3 red and white which is placed in front or behind the mortar, thereby
4 marking the main direction according to which later we take a particular
5 angle with the weapon. So it's very similar to the equipment used by --
6 by geodesic experts. So -- but they also have a board which they use,
7 whereas we only use this picket.
8 Q. All right. Now, once you adjust the mortar, the mortar direction
9 to a certain angle based on using that pole, do you then determine the
10 distance, sir?
11 A. The angle and the distance are approximately determined at the
12 same time, so conditionally we can say that first of all we determine the
13 angle and then the distance. So once the angle is determined, then we go
14 about establishing the distance.
15 Q. And once you establish the distance, which way do you move the
16 barrel? The barrel of the mortar, in which direction?
17 A. When we determine the distance of firing from the firing tables
18 and then we read what the distance is, then we see from there what the
19 elevation is and then, in that example, the mortar is moved according to
20 height. So based on the distance based on which we determined the
21 elevation, the mortar and the barrel are moved by height. A certain
22 elevation is set and taken in order to hit the actual target.
23 Q. Now, once you determine the distance, do you have to use any
24 charts to calculate the degrees that you moved that mortar up and down,
25 the degrees that you elevate the barrel of the mortar?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. The distance of the firing, in principle, is determined in the
2 same way as we determine the angle. It can be calculated. It can be done
3 graphically, or when it's not possible to do it in any other way it's just
4 done by visual methods. So once you determine the distance in one of
5 these three ways, then you take the firing tables, and based on the firing
6 tables, you choose additional charges. And after that, you read from the
7 firing tables the elevation which should be -- or the range finder, which
8 should be taken by the sighting or by the section of the sighting or piece
9 of it which we call the range finder.
10 When we take the right range and the right elevation, then we
11 raise the barrel or lower the barrel for -- until the cross-hairs match on
12 the sighting. When the horizontal and the vertical cross-hairs are in a
13 position that they should be in, then the barrel is in the appropriate
14 elevation which corresponds to a certain firing distance.
15 Q. Now, sir, I just want to go over something quick. You indicated
16 that you can determine distance visually, you can determine it by the use
17 of maps. In 1991, were laser range finders used by the JNA to determine
19 A. Laser range finders were used before 1991. They were used from
20 the 1980s, perhaps even a year or so before that. I came to Zadar in
21 1978, and we were using laser range finders then. So from the 1980s
22 onwards, that is part of the normal equipment that was used, used in order
23 to measure the distance to the target from the observation points.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, I just want to cover one more factor of
25 targeting. Can weather be a factor in targeting or changing one's
2 A. As we know, firing tables take into account certain firing
3 conditions. Actual firing in itself is never actually carried out in
4 precisely those conditions which are stated in the firing tables.
5 For initial elements of firing to be as precise as possible, it is
6 necessary to calculate the meteorological and the ballistic corrections
7 which correspond to the conditions in which the actual firing is taking
8 place. So we would take into account the atmospheric conditions which do
9 have an effect on the precision of firing. So if possible, they should be
10 calculated into the general calculation as well as the topographical
11 elements which are created based on topographical firing elements. Then
12 these elements are corrected and meteorological and ballistic firing
13 conditions are calculated into those elements.
14 Q. Which meteorological or weather factors do you consider?
15 A. With a mortar, we take the azimuth into consideration as well as
16 the wind speed, also the temperature of the air and the pressure. As far
17 as ballistic conditions are concerned, which we also have to take into
18 account, that would be the initial velocity and the temperature of the
19 gunpowder or the temperature of the charge.
20 Q. Now, in the JNA are artillery officers or mortar officers trained
21 to consider meteorological factors or weather factors?
22 A. As I said, I taught artillery rules of firing and theory of
23 artillery firing for 13 years, and in all that time, we had cadets from
24 military schools, from the military academy, the school for reserve
25 officers, and even at the commanders' training courses, whom we taught to
1 calculate the meteorological and ballistic conditions. I believe that as
2 soon as they -- once they had completed all of these military training
3 schools, that they had received their training in all of these subjects as
4 well, otherwise they would not have completed them.
5 Q. Now, did the JNA in 1991 have a section which provided weather
7 A. In order to determine the meteorological conditions of firing, we
8 had meteorological stations in the artillery department, and those
9 stations, with the help of meteorological balloons, which was out in the
10 field, which had a radar at the end, determined the meteorological
11 conditions for firing, and they transmitted this to all units, the
12 meteorological data, in the form of a meteorological bulletin, on a
13 separate channel and frequency at predetermined times, which was always
14 stated in orders, commands, and so on.
15 Q. Thank you. And did this exist in the fall of 1991?
16 A. Yes, of course it did.
17 Q. All right, sir. Let's move on to page 13 of your report where you
18 talk about distribution of fire. What is distribution of fire? What does
19 it concern?
20 A. The distribution of fire on the target is achieved by choosing the
21 correct beam for the depth of the target, determining the direction in
22 which the target stretches, setting the beam, and echeloning the fire.
23 Q. You used the word "cluster." What is the cluster? I think
24 they're translating it as the word "beam."
25 A. The cluster, snop, according to the military lexicon, is the
1 distribution of weapons on the firing position through which you achieve
2 an equal distribution of impact or hits on the target. That would be the
3 simplest definition of a cluster, snop.
4 Q. Did you have a snop, a cluster along the width of a target?
5 A. Targets up to 100 metres wide are fired at with a concentrated
6 cluster, meaning that all the barrels, all the firing azimuths from all of
7 the weapons are looking at the same point, the centre of the target,
8 namely. If the target is broader than 100 metres, then a cluster is
9 determined along the width of the target. So besides determining the
10 cluster, you would also establish the direction that the target goes along
11 in order to carry out corrections in order to coordinate or get a more
12 precise cluster, in order to get a more precise target coverage.
13 Q. Sir, to make this easier, I'll give you a few sheets of paper, and
14 why don't you draw a concentrated cluster and a cluster along the width of
15 the targets so the Court can see what you're referring to.
16 A. So let's assume that these are four mortars, and assume that this
17 is a target up to 100 by 100 metres. The centre of the target is marked
18 with the letter C. Such a target is fired at with a concentrated cluster,
19 meaning that all the trajectories are directed to one point.
20 If the width of the target is greater than 100 metres, and if we
21 assume that the target is at an angle in relation to the weapons, such a
22 target is hit with a cluster spread along the width of the target, meaning
23 that each weapon has its own sector of the target.
24 So that is actually how we direct the cluster along the width of
25 the target. We do this by calculating the corrections, because there is
1 no point in moving the mortars themselves in order to receive or to get a
2 correct distribution of the hits.
3 With the assistance of the earlier-mentioned plotting circle, we
4 make sure that each weapon is corrected for their own area, and this is
5 later checked through a range correction board, and then each weapon
6 targets its own picket, or pole, and then it will focus on that section of
7 the target that it is supposed to fire at, which the shell is supposed to
8 hit, whereby we secure the proper distribution of fire along the target.
9 Q. Sir, could you put a --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MR. WEINER: Sorry.
12 Q. Sir, could you put an A over the concentrated target.
13 A. A concentrated beam or a cluster.
14 Q. Correct. And a B over the one over the width of the target, which
15 you've already done. Could you date that and sign that, sir, on the
17 MR. WEINER: And I'd like to offer that.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
20 THE REGISTRAR: This document is marked P181.
21 MR. WEINER:
22 Q. And, sir, could you continue with a piece of paper. Could you
23 tell us what is the effective zone of fire? What is the effective zone of
25 A. Each projectile has its own effective zone of fire which, first of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 all, depends on the calibre, on the type of the projectile. The type of
2 the projectile if we're thinking of the calibre but also of the type,
3 whether we're talking about a mortar or an artillery projectile. So this
4 effective zone of fire tells us that in that section the target will be
5 neutralised in any case to a certain degree. The place of impact -- if
6 the place of impact is closer, the probability is greater that the target
7 will be destroyed. And then as we move towards the outside, the
8 probability of the target being hit decreases.
9 For example, for a 120-millimetre mortar, the effective zone is 60
10 metres, meaning that within that area the target will be damaged to a
11 certain degree and neutralised to a certain degree. It's possible that it
12 will be completely neutralised or disabled or it will be -- it will suffer
13 some minor damage. These are the possibilities.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, group fire, can you just briefly tell us
15 what that is, group fire. You mention it in a sentence or so in your
16 report. Could you briefly explain that.
17 A. We call that group firing. So group fire is one of the three
18 stages, or the third stage of artillery firing in which, following the
19 preparation of initial elements and after the completion of corrections
20 during the transfer of fire, we fire a certain calculated or approved
21 quantity of projectiles and achieve the material or moral effect on the
22 target. That would be the simplest definition of group fire.
23 Q. Would that be basically once you've honed in on your target you
24 fire a number of shells on it? Everyone starts firing on it?
25 A. After preparation is completed, as well as the correction during
1 the transfer of fire, then the average trajectory goes through the centre
2 of the target and a certain quantity of ammunition is fired at that target
3 in order to exert a material and moral effect on the target or to achieve
4 some degree of neutralisation of the target.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you also mention one more term, "echeloning of fire,"
6 and can you just tell us briefly what that means, echeloning of fire.
7 A. Echeloning of fire or of shots is firing of targets which are at a
8 greater depth, targets which are up to a depth of 200 metres with the
9 changes in the range finder, meaning that we hit a target generally at
10 three ranges. This is mostly used on targets which have a depth from 100
11 to 200 metres. If they're deeper than 200 metres, the effect of
12 echeloning of fire is very slight, and generally such a target is treated
13 as two separate targets.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, let's move to expenditure norms. What are
15 expenditure norms?
16 A. Expenditure norms are quantities of ammunition that most probably
17 will secure a certain effect on the target. That's it.
18 Q. And what is neutralisation in relation to expenditure norms?
19 A. Rules of firing gives tables of ammunition expenditure, and these
20 tables are drafted based on some basic parameters or elements, and these
21 tables were drafted for the 25 per cent level of neutralisation. They
22 were made for the width of a target of one hectare or 100 metres. They
23 were also drafted for firing elements during complete preparation for
24 impact, or immediate impact, and also for firing to a distance of up to
25 ten kilometres.
1 I can say that with artillery fire, you can achieve several tasks;
2 one is neutralisation, second is destruction, and the third we could say,
3 and I'm talking about the basic tasks, would be disruption. Then we also
4 have smoke curtains and also illumination.
5 Disruption would be a neutralisation percentage of up to 10 per
6 cent. Neutralisation constitutes a term ranging from 10 to 50 per cent.
7 A target is destroyed or considered to be destroyed if the degree of
8 neutralisation is greater than 50 per cent. So what level or degree of
9 neutralisation depends on our assignment. First of all, it depends on the
10 task which was given to the artillery or mortar units by their superior
12 Q. Now, sir, as we speak about neutralisation, could you please look
13 at the tables on page 15, the bottom of page 15, running into page 16 of
14 your report. The heading is Fire Task, Type and Characteristics of
15 Target, and Normative Unit.
16 The first column, parts 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, those all concern
17 neutralisation on unobserved targets?
18 A. Yes; 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. That table pertains to neutralisation of
19 unobserved targets, although practically we do know what the type of
20 target is but we don't know how big it is and we don't know its exact
22 Q. And the next three numbers, 7, 8, and 9, concern neutralisation 25
23 per cent of observed targets over one hectare.
24 A. Yes. That part of the table under 7, 8, 9, gives the expenditure
25 norms of projectiles or, rather, ammunition for neutralising a target of
1 one hectare, the degree of neutralisation 25 per cent, and that would be
2 an observed target, namely, one that can be seen from the observation
4 Q. If you want to look on the top of page 16, 4D, "a platoon
5 (battery) of weapons in the open," there's a 90 to the right. Does that
6 mean that to neutralise 25 per cent of a platoon battery of weapons in the
7 open you would need 90 projectiles? So mortars would have to fire 90
8 projectiles to neutralise that?
9 A. If you're referring to item number 4, yes.
10 Q. Yes, that's what I was referring to. And for the record, one
11 hectare is what amount of space?
12 A. One hectare is 100 metres by 100 metres.
13 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to direct and indirect fire. It's
14 mentioned on page 8 of your report. You describe both direct and indirect
15 fire. My question to you is: Which is more effective in targeting;
16 direct or indirect fire?
17 A. At any rate, direct fire is more effective than indirect fire.
18 Q. And why is that, sir?
19 A. First of all, in the case of direct fire, the dispersion is
20 considerably less than in the case of indirect fire. You can see the
21 target. You can affect targeting itself. You do not have any
22 intermediary. When you have a direct -- when you have direct firing, then
23 you quite simply see your target. You see it from where the weapon is,
24 and that is certainly far simpler than indirect firing.
25 Q. What type of weapons did the JNA use, according to your study, in
1 the Dubrovnik area that are direct-fire weapons?
2 A. As far as I know about the materials that deal with the attacks on
3 Dubrovnik, in principle what was used was the Maljutka anti-armour rocket
4 when we are talking about weapons for direct firing, that is. The
5 Maljutka 911, that is.
6 Q. Are recoilless cannons, tanks, and anti-aircraft [Realtime
7 transcript read in error "aircraft"] weapons, are they direct fire or
8 indirect fire weaponry?
9 A. Tanks, recoilless weapons [as interpreted] are all weapons for
10 direct fire, yes. In that example, I mentioned first and foremost
11 anti-armour rockets, 911s, because in the reports on operations against
12 Dubrovnik that were established both by the commission of the Yugoslav
13 Army and the UNESCO commission and that of the government of the Republic
14 of Croatia, most of the hits, or perhaps even all the hits that were
15 directly fired were primarily from rockets.
16 Q. Two corrections, Your Honour, for the transcript. On page 20,
17 line 3, it says "aircraft weapons." That should be anti-aircraft. And on
18 line 5, it says "tanks, recoilless weapons." That should be recoilless
19 cannons. That's what was said. Thank you.
20 Q. Now, sir, what type of weapons were used by the JNA that are
21 indirect fire-type weapons?
22 A. According to these same reports that I have already mentioned,
23 this --
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry for interrupting the
25 witness, Your Honour, and my learned friend, but in order to be as clear
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 as possible, could we please hear what reports the witness is actually
2 referring to? The witness mentioned two reports. I'm just guessing which
3 ones he's referring to, but could this please be clarified for us what
4 reports the witness means when referring to these two reports because it
5 cannot be seen clearly from the report. Thank you.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Could you follow that up, Mr. Weiner.
7 MR. WEINER:
8 Q. Sir, you said reports. You indicated previously a number of
9 reports. One was the commission of the Yugoslav Army, the UNESCO
10 commission, and the one of the Republic of Croatia. Are those the reports
11 that you're referring to again?
12 A. On the 8th of December, 1991, a commission of the Yugoslav Army,
13 the Yugoslav People's Army, together with the top people of the town of
14 Dubrovnik compiled a report. That's the first report. The second report,
15 if I'm not mistaken, was done on the 10th of December. The
16 representatives of UNESCO and the representatives of the government of the
17 Republic of Croatia also compiled a report concerning operations against
18 Dubrovnik. When I mentioned them the first time and the second time,
19 those were the reports that I meant.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, what sort of weapons were used that
21 constitute indirect fire?
22 A. 82-millimetre mortars were used and 120-millimetre mortars.
23 Q. Now, what sort of targets do you use direct fire for?
24 A. As a rule, direct fire is used for very important targets, for
25 individual targets, for all those targets that we can see from the firing
1 position where the weapon actually is. As I've already pointed out,
2 direct fire is more effective than indirect fire.
3 Q. And what sort of targets would you use indirect fire for?
4 A. We use indirect fire for those targets that we cannot target
5 directly, those that are covered, and also by weapons that are covered.
6 When the weapons used for indirect firing and the targets are covered,
7 that is to say when the targets cannot be seen and also when the firing
8 positions and the weapons themselves cannot be seen. So as a rule, they
9 are on the surface.
10 Q. Now, just one last portion on direct fire, one last matter. When
11 you usually fire a tank or a recoilless cannon, you aim and fire. With a
12 Maljutka, can you continue to direct the rocket or the missile after it's
14 A. [No translation]
15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we're not receiving any translation.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English interpretation now?
17 MR. WEINER: Yes.
18 Q. Sir, could you please repeat that answer. It wasn't translated
19 into English. Sorry. The question was: When you usually fire a tank or
20 a recoilless cannon, you aim and fire. With a Maljutka, can you continue
21 to direct the rocket or missile towards its target? And could you please
22 repeat that answer.
23 A. Maljutka or, rather, the 911 anti-armour rocket is a guided
24 projectile, and it can be guided almost throughout the flight, and the
25 flight can be affected practically throughout.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, are we taking the break at the usual
3 time today, or since we started about 20, 25 minutes late, do we continue
4 until about 4.00?
5 JUDGE PARKER: I have no fixed view, but I thought we'd run on for
6 about ten minutes. Just one moment, Mr. Weiner.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE PARKER: It appears, Mr. Weiner, we're asked to have a break
9 at the normal time, and more than that, there is a failure in the
10 equipment cooling system for the electronics, which means that we must
11 move courtroom, and we need to break at the normal time because the
12 equipment is overheating and we don't want to put it at risk.
13 MR. WEINER: That's fine.
14 JUDGE PARKER: I'm afraid it means we move to Courtroom II. Do
15 you want to go on for a minute or two or is this a convenient time?
16 MR. WEINER: I was going to start on a new subject, so I think
17 it's probably a convenient time to break now.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
19 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
21 JUDGE PARKER: I am sorry for the inconvenience of the move. Most
22 of you have managed better than the Bench. We have not yet received our
23 papers, but we will carry on nevertheless.
24 Yes, Mr. Weiner.
25 MR. WEINER: We have extra diagram paper if the Court would like
1 to use it.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Weiner, please.
3 MR. WEINER: We have extra diagram paper for the witness if the
4 Court would like to make use of some.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Weiner.
6 MR. WEINER:
7 Q. Now, Colonel Poje, we're going to start a new subject, working
8 maps for headquarters. Are you familiar with those types of maps?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And could you tell us what those maps are?
11 A. Working maps are maps in which the decisions of commanders and
12 commanding officers are marked, and they are used to provide the units
13 with instructions.
14 Q. Now, do these maps depict the positions of the armies?
15 A. The deployment of units is depicted in such maps. It would be
16 hard to say that the unit is located at a particular point, but the map
17 shows an area where a unit is or where its firing positions are or
18 anything else.
19 Q. Now --
20 A. Because, practically, only after reconnaissance the exact location
21 of a unit can be established or, rather, where the basic weapon will be
22 for an artillery battery, where an observation post will be, and so on.
23 Q. Now, you indicated that the units are deployed. Does that include
24 the weaponry? Do these maps depict weaponry?
25 A. Maps usually depict units, and those weapons that are of crucial
1 importance for the activity of the unit itself. That is how a mortar
2 platoon is depicted, a mortar battery, and so on, even a squad at a
3 position, a platoon at a position, and so on.
4 Q. Are these maps reliable --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Weiner.
6 MR. WEINER: Sorry.
7 Q. Are these maps reliable, sir?
8 A. Yes, they are, because these maps are used for command and control
9 of units.
10 Q. So would they be omitting positions on these maps?
11 A. Probably there wouldn't be any units that would not be depicted.
12 Perhaps it could only happen that a unit would be depicted in one
13 particular place and then later, upon reconnaissance, it is in another
14 position, and that particular location had not been observed yet and
15 therefore not depicted on the map.
16 Q. Now, do they use symbols on these maps?
17 A. Every unit is marked individually and weapons are marked with
18 their own symbols. These symbols are part of the instructions for
19 charting working maps.
20 Q. Do the -- do the maps or the symbols on the maps indicate the
21 exact location of a weapon or the units?
22 A. Maps, as a rule, show areas of deployment. So I would say an
23 approximation. We have to know that plans of operations are made in
24 headquarters, and there is still the possibility of a change, smaller or
25 bigger, of the position itself. So what is depicted on the map
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 practically is the area where the unit is supposed to take its position,
2 and it is the X and Y axis that show this location.
3 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to show you three maps; P132, P159, and P160.
4 I would just like you to look at these maps and tell us if you recognise
6 A. I do recognise these maps.
7 Q. And have you seen these maps previously?
8 A. I have.
9 Q. And did you use these maps in preparing your report in this case?
10 A. When I wrote my report, I did use these maps.
11 Q. Okay. Let us start with map P159. Sir -- Colonel, take a look at
12 it for a moment. There have been three modifications to that map based on
13 witness testimony. The rocket artillery position in square A is instead
14 in the position of circle A. Do you see that?
15 Could you speak a little louder, sir, so the recorder --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The second change is the mortar position in a square marked B was
18 not in deployment on 6 December 1991, according to Witness Negodic. And
19 then finally, the ZIS cannon in a square marked C is now in a position at
20 circle C. Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Assuming these three modifications, does it change your opinion as
23 to who or which side did or did not fire into the Old Town on 6 December
25 A. No.
1 Q. Why is that, sir?
2 A. This new situation does not change the actual state of affairs.
3 Practically what happened was just some unit movement but not major unit
4 movement, not anything that would affect combat activity in any major way.
5 Q. Okay. Colonel, we will get back to map 159 a little bit later.
6 Could you please move to map 160, 160.
7 Map 160 possesses those same three modifications found on map 159,
8 the map you just saw, and in addition to that, it has a Maljutka position
9 marked D, D in a circle. Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you see the other three changes; A, B, and C?
12 A. Yes, B, C, I do.
13 Q. Now, do these four changes on this map, does it change your
14 opinion as to who or which side did or did not fire into the Old Town of
15 Dubrovnik on the 6th of December, 1991?
16 A. All of those changes do not change the report that I submitted.
17 Q. And what's the basis of that, sir?
18 A. Same as I've already said: They do not substantially affect the
19 combat operations around Dubrovnik.
20 Q. Thank you. We'll get back to the maps in a little while.
21 Sir, I just want to ask you a question based on the transcript. I
22 asked you if you saw changes A, B, and C, and you said, "Yes, B, C, I do."
23 Did you also see change A on that second map?
24 A. There are no changes under A on that map, or I'm not seeing it.
25 B, C.
1 Q. Do you see circle A on that map -- cross A.
2 A. Yes, yes, yes, I do. I see it.
3 Q. Okay. And again, just for the record, does that make -- does that
4 change your conclusion, those modifications?
5 A. No, it does not change the conclusions.
6 Q. All right. Thank you. What I'd like to do is move to accuracy
7 for a while, and we'll get back to the maps after we talk about accuracy.
8 When you fire a large number of projectiles and the conditions are
9 basically the same, will they land or impact in the same spot, sir?
10 A. Due to accidental errors, even though we say that a large number
11 of projectiles fired under the same conditions is carried out, those
12 projectiles will not hit exactly the same point.
13 Q. In fact, if you fired two projectiles, would those two land --
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in relation to the
15 transcript, the witness said they will not hit one point but they will hit
16 one area, and that is not in the transcript. That is page 5, line 20.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
18 MR. WEINER:
19 Q. Sir, if you fire two projectiles with all conditions being the
20 same, will they land in the same spot?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Why don't they land in the same spot or same point?
23 A. Although it seems to us that the firing conditions are the same,
24 those two projectiles were not actually fired under the same conditions.
25 This happens because of errors which accompany each firing. These are
1 errors on which we do not have any -- which we do not have any influence
2 on and which are a part of each firing, and not only of each firing but
3 also of each measuring process, and that is why two projectiles, even
4 though they "are fired under equal conditions" will fall on two different
6 Q. Similarly, if you ask -- if you fire a large number of
7 projectiles, will they land in the same spot?
8 A. If we fire a large number of projectiles, and if we -- well, those
9 projectiles will not have the same trajectory. There will be a cluster of
10 trajectories, and if that cluster of trajectories is severed by a vertical
11 line and we watch the place where the projectiles will hit, we will then
12 have an area which those projectiles will strike, and we will also have
13 their trajectories.
14 Q. Okay. Sir, is there a name for this area or for this shape in
15 which the projectiles disperse?
16 A. We call that dispersion, and this dispersion is in the shape of an
18 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could give you a few sheets of paper and
19 move a few of the maps, I'd ask you to do a few diagrams for the Court.
20 MR. WEINER: Could you put it on the ELMO so the Court could see,
22 Q. Colonel, could you draw an ellipse for us. Could you please do
24 A. First of all, I would like to say that dispersion is characterised
25 by an individual ellipse. The axes, semi-axes of this ellipse we will
1 mark with the letters Vd and Vp. So these would be deviations by length
2 or distance and by direction. So these are semi-axes of the individual
3 dispersion ellipse.
4 The pattern of dispersion, theoretically, is infinite,
5 practically, so that it can range from plus/minus 4 Vd times plus/minus 4
6 Vp. That is the practical picture of impact dispersion, which is a result
7 of unintentional errors while firing. And these unintentional errors are
8 errors over which we can have no influence. We can, for example, have
9 just the interval between the first and the second shell or the
10 imperfection of the senses of the person who is doing the measurements,
11 for example, the targeting elements and so on.
12 There is also the built-in tolerance in the equipment or apparatus
13 that is being used. So this entire picture of impact dispersion ranges
14 from plus/minus 4 Vd and plus/minus 4 Vp. The centre of the dispersion
15 ellipse is the intersection between those two dispersion axes. So then we
16 would get an average trajectory in order to get an average point of
18 So now we are looking at 1, 2, 3, 4, and 1, 2, 3, 4 -- 1, 2, 3
19 like this. So this is what this dispersion pattern would look like. The
20 probability of dispersion in one direction or the other direction, closer
21 or further from the centre of dispersion, or to the left or to the right,
22 is practically equal.
23 The closer we are to the average impact, the probability is
24 greater that we will actually hit the target, because the whole zone of
25 impact of the projectiles is from the edges towards the centre, and as it
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 moves more from the edges to the centre, the density of impacts grows, is
2 greater and greater.
3 Q. Just a few things as we go along. The vertical line running
4 through from top to bottom, is that the Vd line? Is that Vd?
5 A. That is Vd, and that is also the direction -- this is the
6 dispersion axis in the direction of fire. And this is Vp.
7 Q. Which is the horizontal line; isn't that correct?
8 A. This is by the direction.
9 Q. Okay. Now, you have four sections. Do you establish concentric
10 ellipses within these four sections when you determine the error, factor
11 the error of dispersion?
12 A. There are four ellipses, and the probability of the projectile
13 falling inside one of those ellipses is different. The distribution of
14 impact could be also presented in that way. We could have an average
15 point of impact -- We will just take one direction by distance. That is
16 Vd. The probability of a projectile deviating to the left or to the right
17 by 1 Vd point is 25 per cent. From 1 Vd to 2 Vd, the probability is 16
18 per cent. From 2 to 3 Vd it's 7 per cent, and from 3 to 4, it's 2 per
19 cent. Meaning if we're looking at a half of the ellipse, it's 50 per
20 cent. In the same way, it would be 16, 7, and 2 on the other side, away
21 from us. So that would also be 50 per cent.
22 So the total probability, the practical probability that the
23 projectiles will hit within those perimeters is 100 per cent.
24 Q. Now, Colonel, can you take those same percentages, the 25, 16, 7,
25 and 2, and place them in the concentric ellipses? Can that be done in
1 determining probabilities?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you --
4 A. Practically, the diagram that I made in a straight line actually
5 corresponds to the ellipse, because the inside part, the inside ellipse is
6 coverage by 50 per cent and so on and so forth. So to the left and to the
7 right, the percentage is 25 per cent. To the left would be 25 per cent,
8 then 16, 7, and 2 on this side within the ellipse, and then also to the
9 other side would be the same.
10 Q. Could you place the 25 per cent in the ellipse or in the half of
11 the ellipse.
12 A. Exactly 25 per cent if we look at it from whatever side. It's 25
13 per cent if we're viewing it from the aspect of the direction. Or if we
14 look at each of the quadrants that I drew, then the percentage is 6.25 per
15 cent. The probability of a projectile landing in that quadrant would be
16 6.25 per cent.
17 Q. Now, as you get closer to the centre, because you're dealing with
18 the higher numbers, would the -- would the density of impacts be higher?
19 A. I think I already said that, but I will say it again. From the
20 periphery of the dispersion ellipse towards the centre, the concentration
21 of impacts is higher and higher.
22 Q. Okay. And I just want to clarify for the record again. The line
23 going vertically from top to bottom, is that the Vd line on the ellipse?
24 The line going from top to bottom, vertically.
25 A. That line shown on this diagram, which at the same time is the
1 line of firing, actually is Vd. The semi-axis perpendicular to that is Vd
2 [as interpreted] and that is --
3 Q. The horizontal line that runs through the middle from left to
4 right, that's Vp; isn't that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the Vd refers to the distance or the range?
7 A. Vd is on the firing-line, yes, on the firing-line.
8 Q. And the Vp refers to the deflection?
9 A. Deflection in the direction.
10 Q. Okay. Now, if you took the whole interior of that first
11 concentric circle, would that be 50 per cent -- the area where 50 per cent
12 of the projectiles would impact, the whole concentric circle, not just the
14 A. 50 per cent would impact that section.
15 Q. And if you --
16 A. The second part would have a 16 per cent impact rate. The third
17 ellipse would have an impact percentage of 7, and the last outer ellipse
18 would have a 2 percentage impact rate.
19 Q. Okay. But if you took the whole ellipse, the 16 is one-half, the
20 whole ellipse would be 32, wouldn't it?
21 A. The area of all of the four ellipses can -- will have 100 per cent
22 of the fired projectiles fall into it.
23 Q. So if the centre one has 30 -- I'm sorry, has 50 per cent, the
24 outside one, the second one, would have 32 per cent, 16 plus 16?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the third ellipse would have 7 plus 7 for 14?
2 A. Fourteen. And the last one would have 4 per cent.
3 Q. Four. Okay. Now, when you're determining these ellipses, does
4 distance affect the area of dispersion?
5 A. Changing the firing distance would change the dispersion pattern
6 according to direction and according to distance. The greater the firing
7 distance, the greater the dispersion pattern, in principle.
8 Q. What about the use of a charge? If you change the type of charge,
9 will that affect the dispersion, be it one charge or several charges being
11 A. If we're using the same firing distance and change the charge or
12 the additional charge of the mortar, then the dispersion pattern will also
14 Q. When you're trying to place -- when you're trying to use a charge
15 or determine how many charges to use, what is your goal in relation to
17 A. One of the elements on which the charge choice depends -- well,
18 the first element is the firing distance. The second is the dispersion.
19 You choose practically that charge which in the given firing conditions at
20 that distance provides for the smallest dispersion.
21 Q. And do you mean by that that you want the charge that would send
22 the most projectiles into the target area?
23 A. That would come as close as possible to the targets, because we
24 said that not all projectiles will hit the targets if we take that the
25 target is the average of the projectiles that hit it, then we would choose
1 our charges with a smaller dispersion pattern, meaning that we achieve a
2 greater concentration over a smaller area.
3 Q. Okay. Now, these ellipses that you've provided in your addendum
4 and the ones that you're talking about now, do they take into effect error
5 factors other than the dispersion error factors, such as miscalculations,
6 equipment malfunction? Do your ellipses take those matters into account?
7 A. I've already said that the dispersion pattern is the result of
8 accidental errors. I tried to mention some of them, the imperfection of
9 the senses, the rounding up of elements, and some imperfections in the
10 measuring equipment, in the shells, in the mortars, even a change in the
11 firing conditions from one projectile to the next. So all of these things
12 would affect the dispersion pattern. For example, the introduction of
13 modern guiding and control firing systems, the introduction of more
14 advanced guiding systems would reduce the dispersion area. It's not
15 possible to avoid dispersion, but it's possible to reduce it.
16 For example, we used to use a stereoscopic range finder with a
17 large margin of error, but then we introduced a laser range finder which
18 really does reduce measuring errors so that -- and an error would also be
19 possible depending on the instrument gauge and the degree to which the
20 gauge measurements were rounded off to. So it depends on what the
21 requirements were of the person actually using those measuring apparatus.
22 So there were ways to reduce overall levels in order to achieve a small --
23 the smallest dispersion possible.
24 Q. All right. We're going to get away from dispersion just for a few
25 moments and then come right back to it. I want to talk about your
1 dispersion charts in the addendum. You mention -- or in your different
2 examples you use charges -- or you use shells, M74, M75, M62P3. Why did
3 you use those shells throughout your examples or hypotheticals?
4 A. When I was making the calculation for the dispersion patterns in
5 different cases, depending on the firing position and the position of the
6 target, I used the ordinary ammunition, ammunition which is used most
7 commonly. Had I taken other types of ammunition, I would not have come to
8 significantly different results.
9 Secondly, when I was calculating all of this, I've already said
10 that you can choose the type of charge. At certain firing distances, it
11 is also possible to use several charges, third, fourth, or fifth charges.
12 So I also tried to figure out the dispersion in this first, second, or
13 third case. I don't know exactly which charges were used in the specific
14 examples that we're dealing with, so I tried to present the theories that
15 changing a charge over a same distance would change the dispersion
17 Q. Now, in your hypotheticals you also use pretty much the same
18 fuses. Was there a reason for that?
19 A. A fuse does not actually have any major effect on the dispersion
20 pattern. Well, each change does have an effect on the dispersion pattern,
21 but fuses do not have a significant effect because the fuses do not really
22 differentiate substantially from one to the other, and they do not have a
23 substantial effect on the dispersion.
24 Q. Now, there are two shells that you didn't mention, and I just want
25 to ask you just quickly about them. Speaking of the types of shells, are
1 flares or smoke shells fired by mortars?
2 A. Mortars which are used to create smokescreens would use smoke
4 Q. Let's talk about smoke shells. Are smoke shells commonly used by
5 mortar units?
6 A. Smoke shells are used by those units which have such projectiles
7 in their combat kits. Smoke shells are used in order to create
8 smokescreens in order to prevent observation and combat operations of the
9 enemy. Smokescreens are also used in order to pull out your own unit
10 under cover from the position. Smoke shells are also used in order to
11 illuminate or indicate where the target is. So these are the main
12 purposes of using smoke shells: To disable the enemy, prevent him from
13 operating, and to enable your own unit, the unit that is being supported,
14 to pull back from its position. That would be -- those would be main
16 Q. Are smoke shells generally found in the combat kits?
17 A. In combat kits, smoke shells can also be found. There are some,
18 as well as flares.
19 Q. Now, you said that smoke shells can also be used for illumination.
20 Do they contain any substances that you're aware of, smoke shells, such as
21 phosphorous? Do you know whether smoke shells contain phosphorous?
22 A. Correction. Smoke shells are not used for illuminating targets
23 but for creating smokescreens. An integral part of a smoke shell is white
24 phosphorous, inter alia.
25 Q. And is there any problem with smoke shells causing fire because of
1 their containing phosphorous?
2 A. Easily inflammable materials can be lit in this way. We had many
3 such examples in the open where, due to smokescreens, there were fires.
4 First of all it was dried grass that went on fire. A smoke shell burns
5 even under water, that is to say, in the water. So we could say that in
6 the case of easily inflammable materials, this would invariably happen,
8 Q. Do you include wood as an easily flammable material?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right, sir. What I'd like to do is to move on to your
11 addendum, and specifically to page 4. There's a chart on page 4 under
12 Question 11 c). It concerns a 120-millimetre mortar firing from
13 Zarkovica. Page 4 in the English. Concerns a 120-millimetre mortar, and
14 then also an 82-millimetre mortar firing from Zarkovica into Ploce. Could
15 you, first, looking at the 120-millimetre chart, please explain it.
16 Could you please explain to the Court what the chart means,
18 A. The first example that was dealt with here is the firing position
19 at Zarkovica of the 120-millimetre mortar. The target is Ploce. The
20 firing range is 2.300 metres.
21 I took this example of using third, fourth, or fifth charge for
22 targeting that particular target.
23 As for the third charge, for instance, in the firing tables for
24 the third charge, in column -- columns 11 and 12 -- so we look at the
25 third charge. That's the 3. The firing range is 2.300 metres. And in
1 column 11 and in column 12, as opposed to the range, we see the magnitude
2 of the probable deviation. 11 is --
3 Q. Excuse me --
4 A. -- the -- 12 is the direction.
5 Q. Could you tell us what 11 and 12 are, please. Could you point it
6 out on the ELMO.
7 A. Column 11 and column 12 in all tables of firing that the Yugoslav
8 People's Army used for artillery and mortar units contain Vd and Vp.
9 First and foremost, in order to avoid errors when weapons are changed.
10 For example, if you move from a 105 to a mortar, the Vd and the Vp would
11 always have to be in columns 11 and 12. Like all the other relevant
12 figures, they would have to be under the same column. The figures would
13 have to be in the same places simply in order to have this done uniformly.
14 And I said what the reason was. So that even if a weapon is changed,
15 there would not be any confusion or some other kind of possible mistake.
16 Q. Colonel, one moment, please. Colonel, you're referring to mortar
17 targeting tables. Could you first identify the book that you're referring
18 to for the Court. Could you identify the front cover of the book, please,
19 on the targeting tables. And could you read the -- read the title of the
21 A. "Firing Tables for the Light Mortar of 120 millimetres, M75."
22 Q. Could you --
23 A. The edition of 1985.
24 Q. And was that same edition used in 1991 by the Yugoslav People's
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And could you first show us the tables and explain what those are,
3 take us from each of the columns so we understand that.
4 A. If I go back to the third charge that we have already mentioned,
5 we can see that in column number 1 the distance or, rather, range is
6 marked, that is to say from the firing position to the target.
7 Column number 2 is finder -- is the range finder, 1 to 6.000. So
8 the circle is divided into 6.000 sections.
9 Then column number 3. It says the angle, but we can also say
10 elevation. Again, 1 to 6.000.
11 In column number 4 is this same elevation or this same angle which
12 corresponds to the distance or range in terms of degrees or minutes.
13 Column 6 -- under number 6, that is, talks about the highest point
14 of the trajectory, that is to say the highest point that the shell reaches
15 along its trajectory.
16 Column 7 refers to the time of flight of the projectile. It is
17 important not to have to look through the instruments all the time and to
18 wait for 35 or 40 seconds until the shell actually lands.
19 Column number 9 refers to the angle of descent, that is to say the
20 angle under which the shell falls.
21 And we've already referred to columns 11 and 12. That is Vd in 11
22 and Vp in 12. So range error probable, and deflection error probable.
23 Q. Now, the 3 in the middle of the page that's in a different colour,
24 that's in blue as opposed to the black numbers in the columns, does that
25 refer to the charge being used, charge 3?
1 A. That number 3 implies the number of additional charges. So it is
2 the third charge.
3 Q. And these tables that you're using, have you commonly used these
4 tables for your training and for the thousands of mortar shells that
5 you've fired?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And are these necessary? Are tables necessary for targeting and
8 firing mortar shells?
9 A. In the 1980s, some changes took place in the firing tables,
10 because until then, we could use the so-called ballistics for such
11 information. This is a type of graphic firing table that we used, and you
12 could directly read what the elevation should be in terms of the range.
13 You could also read the time of flight required. In the 1980s, some
14 materials were changed, and therefore new firing tables were made.
15 While I was in the army, there weren't any new ones, so we used
16 the firing tables for determining, for example, the range, the distance.
17 We use it just as I used it here in order to establish the dispersion
19 Q. Okay. Now to the right on this next page there are several other
20 columns. Are those also important to your calculations?
21 A. These columns contain table corrections. When we talked about
22 meteorological and ballistic conditions of firing and the necessity to
23 calculate meteorological corrections in order to establish actual
24 corrections, then these columns are used, the ones on the other page of
25 the firing tables, all the way up to column 1 again. Can we see it here?
1 Column 18, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, and again we go back to column 1. So these
2 are the table corrections, and we use them to multiply the deviation of
3 the actual conditions in respect of the values provided for in the firing
5 Q. Thank you. And could you tell us what pages those two tables fall
6 in that book so we can photocopy them at the break? If you can just leave
7 the book here, we can -- you've mentioned that book in your footnote.
8 A. 106 and 107. 106 and 107.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, getting back to our original chart on page 4
10 of your addendum, you showed us where you got the V -- the Vd and the Vp.
11 Could you finish explaining what this table means.
12 A. If we look at this firing table and if we look at this firing
13 range of 2.300 metres, we have read the Vd values, 14 metres, and the
14 probable deviation would be 10 metres. These are semi-axes of dispersion
16 We said that the entire dispersion pattern contains plus/minus 4
17 Vd, that is to say 8 Vd, and plus/minus 4 Vp, that is to say 8 Vp. And in
18 this table that I prepared here, I wrote out the semi-axis of the
19 dispersion ellipses, 4 times 14 because of plus/minus 56 metres. These
20 are the semi-axes of dispersion ellipses. So 1 is 56 metres.
21 Also, in terms of direction, 10 is the semi-axis of -- so then
22 there is 40 metres. The semi-axis is 40. So this is the entire
23 dispersion pattern.
24 If we look at it now, we see the range, 112 metres. And in terms
25 of direction, the dispersion is 80 metres. So that is the dispersion
1 pattern under given conditions of targeting or firing. Or the most
2 probable dispersion pattern. Perhaps I should put it that way.
3 It was calculated for the fourth and for the fifth charge as well.
4 Q. Okay. Now, sir, I just want to get this correct. You start off
5 with the 14 Vd, and each of those four sections that you showed us, you
6 have the ellipse and there's four ellipses, four sections. Each of those
7 are 14 metres long, for a total of 56 metres? Yes.
8 And horizontally, each one of those are ten metres wide; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. So half the ellipse is 56 by 40, and the whole ellipse is
12 double that, 112 metres by 80 metres?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, if we consider the semi-axis of dispersion the top half of
15 the ellipse, the part which is farthest away from those firing and closest
16 to the Old Town, that would be the 56 by 40, the top part of it, would any
17 part of that ellipse enter or overlap into the Old Town?
18 A. As far as I know, taking into account the position of the targets,
19 the possible targets that were engaged, not a single one of the calculated
20 ellipses does not go into the Old Town.
21 Q. I was asking you about the one -- the one with charge 3, but as
22 you said, all six of them, 120-millimetre mortar, charges 3, 4, and 5, and
23 the 82-millimetre mortar, charges 3, 4, and 5. You indicated not one of
24 the semi-ellipses mentioned in that addendum on page 4, not one of them
25 would enter or overlap into the Old Town; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, there are additional hypotheticals on pages 5 through 9,
3 firing from Zarkovica, target Bogosica Park on page 5. Then on the bottom
4 of page 5 into 6, firing from Zarkovica towards Srdj; and then firing
5 position Bosanka, target Ploce, and that's the Lazareti example, from
6 Bosanka to Lazareti or Ploce. And below that is from Bosanka targeting
7 Bogosica Park. And finally -- there are a few more. From Bosanka
8 targeting Srdj, on pages 7 and 8. And on pages 8 and 9, Srdj targeting
9 Ploce and Srdj targeting Bogosica Park.
10 Based on your calculations relating to the JNA mortars firing from
11 those positions, do any of the semi-axes of the dispersion ellipses in
12 those calculations overlap or enter the Old Town of Dubrovnik?
13 A. Not a single semi-axis of dispersion touches town or goes into
15 Q. So if the JNA was firing from any of those positions at any of
16 those stated targets, none of these shells would disperse into the Old
18 A. As for these examples that I calculated and the ones that were
19 referred to just now, the semi-axes of the dispersion ellipses are less
20 than 100 metres. That means that practically it was impossible for any
21 one of the dispersion patterns to involve the town, neither a single part
22 nor its entirety.
23 Q. Now, Colonel Poje, utilising these calculations and these tables,
24 would any of the dispersion strike the walls of the Old Town? Basically,
25 would any of these semi-axes of the dispersion ellipses overlap with the
1 walls of the Old Town? Not just enter the Old Town but overlap the walls
2 on these, the pages 5 through 9 as well as the one on page 4. So the ones
3 on pages 4 through 9.
4 A. In all these calculations, that is to say these three firing
5 positions and three targets, not in a single one -- so actually, the
6 targets are more far away than the dispersion pattern. So not a single
7 dispersion pattern touches upon the Old Town, let alone enter it.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, did you calculate some hypothetical
9 situations where JNA mortars are firing at Croatian anti-aircraft guns,
10 what the projectile dispersion would be in relation to the Old Town? Did
11 you calculate any of these hypotheticals in your supplements?
12 A. From the same firing positions that were mentioned until now,
13 namely Zarkovica, Bosanka, and Srdj, I calculated the dispersion patterns
14 in respect of the following targets: Anti-aircraft gun, about 150 to 200
15 metres to the north of the walls of the Old Town. Secondly, as for a
16 target, the anti-aircraft gun at the beginning of the funicular, or cable
17 car. And the anti-aircraft gun east of Ploce about 200 metres.
18 Q. Now, before you continue, sir, I'd like to give you map -- or show
19 you map P160 again, and could you please show the Court which three guns,
20 anti-aircraft guns, you're referring to. If you could place that on the
21 ELMO, please.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for
23 interrupting the witness and my learned colleague. I see only one of the
24 calculations that my colleague has referred to, Mr. Weiner. It's the
25 calculation that has to do with the gun north of the Old Town. I do not
1 see the other three that he mentions in his question that starts on page
2 22, line 25. I see only one in the material that was disclosed to us.
3 Thank you.
4 MR. WEINER: All right. Why don't we do this: Why don't we hand
5 the supplement out, which was disclosed to you, and then we can have the
6 witness look at the supplement and explain the supplement, number one, as
7 well as show you on the map what he's referring to.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner, how long do you think that exercise
9 would take?
10 MR. WEINER: Just three or four minutes --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Weiner, please.
12 MR. WEINER: Five minutes at the most.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
14 MR. WEINER: When were you planning to take the next break, Your
15 Honour, so I can --
16 JUDGE PARKER: Any time in the next five or six minutes,
17 Mr. Weiner.
18 MR. WEINER: Why don't we do this: If we can take the break now,
19 when the witness comes back, he will have everything in front of him and
20 I'll also meet with Defence counsel to make sure we're on the same page.
21 JUDGE PARKER: That's why I asked the question. We will have a
22 break now, and everything will be in order when we return.
23 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
24 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
2 MR. WEINER: We're all on the same page. It was just they were
3 looking at the wrong document.
4 Speaking of documents, very quickly, could the witness be shown
5 this table, pages 106 and 107.
6 Q. Colonel Poje, are these tables the ones that you referred to about
7 30 minutes ago when you were discussing the first hypothetical in the
8 addendum, on page 4, and you told us about the Vd of 14 and the Vp of 10?
9 Are these the tables that you were discussing?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, these are the tables.
12 MR. WEINER:
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. WEINER: I'd like to offer that at this time.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit will be marked P182.
17 MR. WEINER: Mr. Usher, if you could please provide supplement
18 number 1 to the witness and to the other parties.
19 Q. Now, Colonel Poje, looking at supplement number 1, did you
20 calculate some hypothetical situations where JNA mortars, if firing at
21 Croatian anti-aircraft guns, whether or not it would have had projectile
22 dispersion into the Old Town? Did you make certain calculations about
24 A. Yes, I did make calculations for those three examples that are
25 given there, the three anti-aircraft guns north of the Old Town at the
1 beginning, where the cable car starts, and east of Ploce.
2 Q. Actually, the -- it's one gun north of the Old Town with two
3 different positions. Isn't that correct?
4 A. Yes. One of them is about 150 to 200 metres away from the walls
5 of the Old Town, at the beginning of the cable car.
6 Q. Okay. Now, I just want to -- before we look on the map, I just
7 want to get it straight. In your hypotheticals, JNA mortars would be
8 firing from what locations, according to your calculations in supplement
10 A. I made the calculation from several firing positions. The first
11 one was in Zarkovica, the second was at Bosanka, and I also took a third
12 example of a position on Srdj.
13 Q. Now, using the map to your right, which is Exhibit P160, could you
14 please show us where those target positions are; the one anti-aircraft gun
15 in two different positions north of the Old Town, and the other location
16 to the east of the Old Town.
17 A. This is one position. It's north of Old Town, assuming that the
18 same gun is also located at the beginning of the cable car. And the third
19 position is this position.
20 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, for the record, the witness was pointing
21 at the symbol above the Old Town, to the top of the symbol. He then
22 pointed to a second position approximately, I would say, one-half inch,
23 but I would have to get that in centimetres --
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would ask my learned
25 colleague to precisely describe what the witness indicated. So the
1 symbol, for example, that is mentioned is on the walls of the Old Town,
2 which can be clearly seen, and he indicated two or three inches - I'm not
3 quite familiar with inches and I apologise because of that - pointed to
4 the north, to the beginning of the cable car, so that he did not precisely
5 point out what can be seen on the map.
6 I apologise again for interrupting.
7 MR. WEINER: Rather than letting me try and convert inches to
8 centimetres, I'll have him write numbers on the three locations, with
9 the Court's permission, if he can write on the map the numbers.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Is that map an exhibit?
11 MR. WEINER: Yes, it is.
12 JUDGE PARKER: That produces a problem, I'm told.
13 MR. WEINER: All right. We can see the symbol. Okay. We won't
14 write it.
15 Q. Sir, we can see the symbol above the Old Town, the anti-aircraft
16 symbol above the Old Town. How far, in centimetres, is the cable car
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the record, I
19 would like my learned friend to explain to me how this symbol can be above
20 the Old Town. The bottom part touches the houses, the middle is on the
21 actual wall. So how can he see it above and outside of the Old Town? I
22 would like to see, and I would like an explanation of how my colleague
23 sees that.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.
25 MR. WEINER: Yes.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Are you going to make any comment on that, or are
2 you going to change your tack, or are we going to get to the foot of the
3 cable car?
4 MR. WEINER: We can get to the foot of the cable car.
5 Q. Sir, can you tell us, from the Old Town walls, approximately how
6 far is the foot of the cable car?
7 A. About 300 to 350 metres.
8 Q. And when you made your calculations, how far was the anti-aircraft
9 gun from the Old Town? The second one, the one closest to the Old Town
10 walls, how far was that gun from the Old Town when you made your
12 A. When I was making my calculations, I took that -- the
13 anti-aircraft gun to be at the top of the arrow.
14 Q. And why did you do that, sir?
15 A. As far as I can recall, anti-aircraft cannon would be indicated --
16 the top of the arrow would not indicate the place of the anti-aircraft
18 Q. The top of the arrow would not or would indicate the place? I'm
19 sorry, I --
20 A. It would mark it, yes.
21 Q. In fact, is having an anti-aircraft gun backing up to a wall, is
22 that a good position for situating an anti-aircraft gun, with its back to
23 the wall?
24 A. It's probably not good, because it doesn't have the area to be
25 covered, because we know that an anti-aircraft gun is primarily meant to
1 fire at aircraft. So a position placing it near a wall would not be a
2 favourable position for such a weapon.
3 Q. And in map drawing practice, where you have the anti-aircraft gun
4 symbol, where is the anti-aircraft gun itself located?
5 A. As far as I know, at the top of the arrow indicating that gun.
6 Q. And where is the third location that you referred to?
7 A. I said that it was to the east by 200 metres from the mortar
8 position in the Ploce sector.
9 Q. Okay. Now, did you prepare those calculations listed in addendum
10 number 2 -- I'm sorry, addendum number 1, these seven pages? I'm sorry,
11 not addendum, supplement number 1. Did you prepare that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And could you briefly explain what they are, since they're not in
14 English, they're being translated right now.
15 A. The procedure to calculate the dispersion pattern is the same as
16 in the previous case which I explained. There is no other way of
17 calculating it but on the basis of the determined firing distance, the
18 chosen charge, then we determine the deflections by direction and by
19 distance, and then based on that we calculate the semi-axis of the
20 dispersion ellipses, and that is how we calculate the area covered by the
21 dispersion zone.
22 Q. And did you use those tables that you had shown us previously,
23 those pages 106 and 107? Did you use those same tables in calculating the
24 dispersion ellipses?
25 A. Yes, I used those tables, but I used those pages which correspond
1 to the specific charge and the firing distance.
2 Q. Thank you. And are those the same tables in that 1985 book that
3 you had? Are those the same tables that were used in the fall of 1991 by
4 the JNA?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And considering each of these calculations or evaluations, do any
7 of the semi-axes of the dispersion ellipses enter or overlap with the Old
8 Town? Do any of them?
9 A. The dispersion ellipses that I calculated and cited, the
10 dispersion pattern ranges from 40 to 160 metres. The semi-axes of the
11 dispersion pattern are in the boundaries from 20 to 80 metres. In view of
12 those places where the targets were not located, no dispersion zone or
13 semi-axis of dispersion would approach or overlap with the Old Town.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, Colonel, did you ever calculate the hypothetical
15 situation of whether JNA mortars, if firing from Uskoplje, would have any
16 projectile dispersion if it was firing into the Old Town from that same
17 anti-aircraft location?
18 A. I did make one calculation if firing was carried out from a
19 battalion firing group based on the map which was shown to me at the
20 beginning after the first break, from the Uskoplje position, using
21 120-millimetre mortars.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. The dispersion pattern, or the semi-axis of dispersion for that
24 example, for that distance, 5.600 metres, which was the approximate firing
25 distance, would be 140 by 86 [as interpreted] metres. We could say on
1 this example that 1 to 2 per cent of the hits could fall on the walls of
2 the Old Town.
3 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown supplement number 2,
5 Now, could the witness be shown map 132, where he can show us the
7 Q. Could you show us Uskoplje and your target, Colonel.
8 A. This is the firing position of the battalion artillery or firing
9 group 3. The target, we said, is 150 metres to the north of the walls.
10 Q. Now, what type of mortars did you use?
11 A. 120 millimetres.
12 Q. Did you make the determination also, the calculation with an
13 82-millimetre mortar?
14 A. 82-millimetre mortars from that area, from Uskoplje, was within
15 range. So I didn't calculate that, there was no need to do that.
16 Q. What do you mean it was within range, the 82-millimetre mortar?
17 A. The 82, from its positions on the --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not clear whether the witness
19 is saying that it is within range or it is not within range.
20 MR. WEINER:
21 Q. Colonel, we're having an interpretation problem. The
22 82-millimetre mortar, is its firing within range of the Old Town or
23 outside of the range of the Old Town in the Uskoplje hypothetical?
24 A. The 82 -- the 82 mortars could not reach the Old Town. They did
25 not have the range to reach the Old Town.
1 Q. All right. Now, assuming that the 120-millimetre mortars were
2 firing at a hypothetical anti-aircraft gun approximately 150 metres north
3 of the Old Town, what's your conclusion as to projectile dispersion? What
4 was your conclusion in supplement number 2?
5 A. As I said, the dispersion pattern in that example ranges from 280
6 to 152 metres. The semi-axis of the dispersion is 140 by 76 metres. So
7 that is the dispersion from the average trajectory closer to the town. We
8 can say that in that example, 1 to 2 per cent of the hits could fall on
9 the walls of the Old Town.
10 Q. And when you say "could," is that a possibility or is that a
11 definite situation?
12 A. If we said that the target was 150 metres away from the walls and
13 the semi-axis dispersion was 140, then the position of the cannon could
14 have been 140 metres or 130 metres. So there is a possibility that a
15 small percentage of the projectiles hit the walls. It's not possible
16 directly because we still have 10 metres remaining, 140 or 150.
17 When we're talking about the distance alone, then we could have an
18 error of 10 to 20 metres which could result in, as I wrote down, 1 to 2
19 per cent of all projectiles that were fired, hypothetically, on that
20 target could also hit the walls of the Old Town.
21 Q. Is that due to the effect of distance on the ellipse? You expand
22 the ellipse because of distance?
23 A. The ellipse is such -- such as it was calculated, 250 by 152,
24 could be by also 140 by 76 metres. Increasing the distance by 50 metres
25 up or down would not significantly change the dispersion pattern. Perhaps
1 it could affect it by 1 or 2 metres.
2 Q. Okay. Now I would like you to go to the next map --
3 JUDGE PARKER: Before you move, Mr. Weiner, on this second
4 supplement, I noticed firstly that on the B/C/S version the ellipse is
5 shown as 280 by 152 metres, yet the paragraph immediately following the
6 table it's shown as 280 by 156 metres. There's a 4 metre discrepancy
8 On the English version, the table, that dimension was illegible,
9 and yet the 156 is repeated in the written paragraph that follows. Can we
10 be sure whether it is 152 or 156?
11 MR. WEINER:
12 Q. Colonel Poje, can you look at the supplement number 2, in the
13 B/C/S version. In the bottom of your table, you say 280 by 152. In the
14 sentence below that, it says 280 by 156.
15 A. It's probably my typing error, because 76 times 2 is 152 metres.
16 Probably I wrote down 156 by mistake.
17 Q. Could you --
18 JUDGE PARKER: The second matter is just a note that in the
19 transcript at 30, line 11, the dispersion ellipse half axis is shown as
20 140 by 86 in the transcript, whereas it's clearly 140 by 76 on the table.
21 MR. WEINER:
22 Q. Is that correct, sir? Should it be 140 by 76?
23 A. The semi-axis of dispersion is 140 by 76 plus/minus.
24 Q. Thank you. On the B/C/S version of supplement number 2, could you
25 correct that and make that a 152 and initial that, please.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Now, sir --
3 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I was going to move all the documents in
4 at the end. Is that all right with you, or would you rather have me move
5 them in one at a time? There's only three or four.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on.
7 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
8 Q. Sir, could we now look at map P160. Now, sir, do you see where
9 Gradac Park is located on that map?
10 A. Could you please guide me in a way?
11 Q. Approximately 300 metres to the left of the Old Town. Area to the
12 west of the Old Town. Yes.
13 A. [Indicates]
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the witness knows
15 how to find something on a map, he will do so. The way in which my
16 learned friend is doing this is leading, I believe. The question is how
17 he could write such a report if he cannot find this on the map. But
18 anyway, putting this kind of question is wrong.
19 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, Mr. Petrovic, I can't agree with you on
20 this occasion. The witness is being directed to a point on a map that has
21 been identified in the course of evidence. If we left him to his own
22 devices, we could be here at 7.00 finding it. Any witness can have that
23 bother. I can look at a map and not see --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
25 JUDGE PARKER: So we won't be too persnickity about this.
1 MR. WEINER:
2 Q. Now, sir, based on your previous calculations of firing from JNA
3 forces from Zarkovica, if they fired from Zarkovica toward or on any
4 target in Gradac Park, are the error of probabilities -- I'm sorry -- are
5 the semi-axes of the dispersion ellipse, would those overlap into the Old
6 Town or enter the Old Town if you're firing from Zarkovica onto Gradac
8 A. If one shoots from Zarkovica to the Gradac Park, the ellipses does
9 not overlap the Old Town, does not coincide with it.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak into
11 the microphone the interpreters note.
12 MR. WEINER:
13 Q. All right. And what's your basis of that answer?
14 A. On the basis of all the calculations that I made for different
15 targets around town, around the town. Not in a single calculation did I
16 get such a big ellipse of dispersion that it encompassed part of the town
17 or that it went through town.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry for
19 interrupting my colleague. I do not have any calculation for the Gradac
20 Park. Perhaps again we have a mistake here. Where is this calculation
21 for Gradac Park, the one that the witness is talking about?
22 MR. WEINER: I was just asking him to calculate based on his
23 previous calculations. There is no discovery in use. And counsel also
24 said again we have a problem here. The last time they did have the proper
25 discovery, they were just looking at the wrong page. So this is not the
1 second time there's been any problem.
2 May I continue? Thank you.
3 Q. Just a question on ellipses and dispersion error. The farther
4 that you fire from a location towards a target, is the percentage of
5 error, does that increase? Does that have any effect on the dispersion
6 error, the greater the distance that you fire?
7 A. With one charge, as the distance is increased, the dispersion
8 pattern goes up too.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, I've got a couple questions on other matters
10 in your report. You didn't mention recoilless cannons or tanks firing in
11 your findings. If they had fired on the 6th of December, would that have
12 changed your conclusions or opinions?
13 A. It would not have changed them. I've already mentioned, inter
14 alia, that I used the reports of the Yugoslav Army and UNESCO, and there
15 is no mention there of any impacts coming from cannons, recoilless cannons
16 and tanks. I cannot confirm this with 100 per cent certainty, that is,
17 that they were not fired from.
18 Q. But, sir, assuming that they were used, would that change any of
19 your calculations or your findings or conclusions?
20 A. A recoilless gun and tanks engage in direct fire. So as far as
21 that is concerned, they are more precise and more accurate than mortar
22 fire which is indirect fire.
23 Q. So are the error probabilities of direct weapons greater or less
24 than that of mortars?
25 A. The dispersion pattern is considerably lower in the case of direct
1 fire than in the case of indirect fire.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, Colonel Poje, have you been to the Old Town of
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And have you walked through the streets and reviewed the area?
6 A. I reviewed it, and I photographed it.
7 Q. And is the Old Town -- based on your review or your evaluation of
8 the Old Town, is it suitable for artillery and mortars?
9 A. In view of how densely it is populated, the narrow streets, the
10 relatively high buildings, the Old Town of Dubrovnik is not favourable for
11 artillery and mortar positions.
12 Q. Does the ground, the type of ground, the hard surface, does that
13 affect your opinion?
14 A. It does affect it. Actually, when there is a hard surface, and
15 that is stone, the weapon shakes when it is fired, and that is why, of
16 course, that kind of surface is not good for choosing that kind of
18 Q. Would the use of sandbags correct the problem in the Old Town?
19 A. As far as the surface is concerned where the weapons would be,
20 then that problem could be resolved with sandbags, but I think there's
21 another problem involved too. The narrow streets, the high buildings, the
22 question where such a position could be found from which one could fire.
23 Q. With sandbags, would you still have recoil problems, shaking
25 A. Probably, yes.
1 Q. And is that a danger to the soldiers operating the mortars if it's
2 shaking, and recoil problems?
3 A. There is a danger, though not a major one. For example, a mortar
4 can simply fall.
5 Q. Colonel Poje, are you familiar with the anti-aircraft weapons?
6 A. Let's say a little bit. I'm not an expert in anti-aircraft
7 artillery. I am familiar with it to a degree.
8 Q. Are there various types of anti-aircraft weaponry?
9 A. Yes, there are. There are anti-artillery systems -- anti-aircraft
10 systems that are guns and anti-aircraft systems that are rockets.
11 Q. And what are they used for?
12 A. As the name says itself, there are barrel-based systems and
13 rocket-based systems that are used for targeting aircraft and helicopters
14 and other targets that are in the air.
15 Q. Can it also be used to target, or it also be used for targets on
16 the ground?
17 A. Cannon systems like three-barrelled, or single-barrelled
18 anti-aircraft guns to be used for targets on the ground, but rocket
19 systems cannot be used. These are rockets that are guided.
20 Q. And are these direct-fire systems?
21 A. It involves direct fire. These are direct-fire systems.
22 Q. Now, based on your analysis or your review of the Old Town, is the
23 Stradun a good place for an anti-aircraft weapon?
24 A. In view of the fact that on the Stradun both left and right and
25 front and back, there are relatively, I say relatively, high buildings,
1 that would mean that an anti-aircraft weapon, a cannon, for instance,
2 would cover a relatively small area in the air. That means that it would
3 not be a very favourable position for anti-aircraft artillery.
4 Q. Would it make a difference if it was an anti-aircraft weapon on a
5 vehicle or standing alone? Does it make a difference?
6 A. Frankly speaking, so far, if we are talking about three-barrelled
7 or one-barrel guns of 20 millimetres, I haven't seen any such thing. I
8 cannot say yes or no by way of an answer, whether it's possible to place
9 this kind of gun on a vehicle, to mount it on a vehicle and to be used as
10 an anti-aircraft gun from such a position. Even if it were to be mounted,
11 let us assume that - I've never even any such thing, I've never seen it -
12 probably the vehicle would have to have special stabilisers because it
13 would be very hard for the vehicle to be stable enough on wheels.
14 Q. What about firing an anti-aircraft weapon from the walls?
15 A. The walls are relatively narrow, and it would be hard to place
16 such a cannon there. It is possible, hypothetically, to position it on a
17 somewhat broader part of the walls, but then there's the problem of how
18 the gun could be brought to that position, and also the question of the
19 stability of the walls themselves when shooting, when firing. I don't
20 know what the stability is. So the question is whether the walls could
21 take that kind of activity such as the firing of a three-barrelled
22 anti-aircraft gun.
23 Q. We'll get back to the walls in a few minutes, but what about the
24 anti-aircraft guns called the Strela or Igla? Are you familiar with
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you fire one of those from inside a building?
3 A. As far as all rocket systems are concerned, one does not shoot
4 from indoors, from within a building. We know what rocket systems are
5 like, and we know that rocket motors have to be out in the open or
6 otherwise they would cause damage.
7 Q. When you say "damage," if you fired it indoors --
8 A. Fire. It means that a fire can break out. It's enormous flames
9 that one sees when a rocket is launched. That's what creates it.
10 Q. Now, these Strelas and Iglas, are these heat-seeking weapons?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And these heat-seeking projectiles, are they used against ground
14 A. Such projectiles are actually those that require a powerful source
15 of heat or energy, and it's very hard to find such a source.
16 Q. All right. When I say ground troops, what about other land
18 A. In principle, no. These are systems that are intended for
19 targeting aircraft only.
20 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated that there is a possibility of --
21 although a difficult possibility, of firing an anti-aircraft gun from the
22 walls. If you fire an anti-aircraft gun from the walls, is it visible?
23 A. 20-millimetre ammunition that is used for an anti-aircraft gun is
24 a very noticeable one. It has a tracer. It makes it easier for the
25 gunner to target aircraft, for instance, in the air, because it can follow
1 the actual flight of the projectile since the speed is relatively big - of
2 the firing, that is - and if there were no tracer, the gunner would
3 probably not even notice, would not even see the direction where it went.
4 Q. Are these tracers quite visible in the sky?
5 A. Tracers are visible. That's why they exist in the first place.
6 Q. And if you're firing one of these guns with tracer bullets, aren't
7 you an easy target?
8 A. I have already mentioned that for the most part these guns are
9 used for targeting aircraft.
10 Q. But if you fire it from the walls, due to the tracers do you
11 become an easy target because the tracers can be observed?
12 A. Most definitely. Most definitely. Hypothetically, if one were to
13 fire from the walls or from anyplace with these guns, the location from
14 where the firing takes place can certainly be seen, and such a weapon
15 becomes a target.
16 Q. Now, if the Old Town was being filmed or video recorded during a
17 shelling and anti-aircraft guns were firing from the town, would tracers
18 be visible on this film?
19 A. They should be visible.
20 Q. Just one question apparently didn't come out on the -- or it just
21 came up partially on the transcript.
22 If you're firing one of those heat-seeking rockets, one of those
23 anti-aircraft rockets, is a lot of heat necessary for the rocket to target
24 a certain object?
25 A. I don't know how much, but I imagine a considerable amount is
1 required. I don't know what the exact figure would be.
2 Q. And does the projectile move towards an object emanating heat?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, I'd like you to look at your report. There
5 are a couple answers that I want to ask you about. Question 18 b) -- or
6 answer 18 b). Could you read that, please.
7 A. "Weapons used to attack Dubrovnik."
8 Q. Read that to yourself, please.
9 Sir, could you explain that? You make two or three points in
10 that. Could you explain what you mean?
11 A. Are we talking about the same question, 18 b)?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. In the first part, I claim that the Yugoslav Army did not have the
14 intention of taking the town, because according to the decision of the 2nd
15 of December, the deployment of the 3rd Battalion is a defensive one. It
16 is positioned for defence. That can be seen on the map.
17 Secondly, I claim that all the objectives or, rather, targets that
18 can be seen would be directly targeted, those that can be seen from the
19 positions of the Yugoslav People's Army in Dubrovnik and around Dubrovnik.
20 So they would be targeted by direct fire.
21 The other targets would be engaged by mortar fire.
22 And the last thing I say is that only those buildings from which
23 people fire are targeted, in principle.
24 Q. And --
25 A. If that cannot be stopped in any other way, if this gunfire coming
1 from them cannot be stopped in some other way.
2 Q. Now, you were talking about the Old City. Were you referring to
3 any targets within the Old City?
4 A. As far as I know, there were no targets in the Old Town.
5 Q. And what did you mean by JNA doctrine? "... populated areas fire
6 is directed only against buildings from which people fire..." What do you
7 mean by that?
8 A. That means that if fire was coming from a building, it's possible
9 to fire at that building if in some other way it's not possible to make
10 sure that the firing stops from that particular building.
11 Q. Now, you mention that the troops around Dubrovnik were in a
12 defensive position. Is that the same as also being in a blockading
14 A. Well, you could say that to a certain extent.
15 Q. Now, 18 d). Could you look at that, please, that answer. That
16 ERN number that you referred to and certain information from it, 0600
17 hours, Croatian forces, forces of the JNA 3rd Motorised Battalion, the
18 11.15 cease-fire ordered by General Strugar, where did you get that
19 information, if you recall?
20 A. In the documents that I reviewed, especially the radiogram
21 documents. I found that in the radiograms that what is stated here is
22 mentioned two or three times.
23 Q. And that radiogram, do you know who sent it?
24 A. As far as I know, it -- according to the document, it's a
25 radiogram by General Strugar.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what is that exhibit?
2 What document are we talking about? Has that already been admitted into
3 evidence, or which document is that? Could we please find out which
4 document we're talking about.
5 MR. WEINER: It has the ERN number, that's the radiogram between
6 General Strugar and, I believe, Mr. Rudolf. The one that Mr. Rudolf
7 discussed and the one that also Mr. Hvalkof discussed. It's in
8 Mr. Hvalkof's daily diary of times, and it's also discussed by Mr. Rudolf.
9 It is in evidence.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, but it's not
11 General Strugar. The Rudolf radiograms refer to General Jokic. So that
12 is part of the exhibits of this case. If there is some other exhibit,
13 then, please, we'd like to be told.
14 MR. WEINER: It's the exhibit in evidence which indicates that
15 General Strugar has called for a cease-fire at 11.15. I would be happy to
16 provide the document tomorrow morning, if the Court would like.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you can clarify with Mr. Petrovic the
19 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
20 Q. Now, sir, is there a mortar technique that's used if you want to
21 fire at a target that is close to a protected object?
22 A. If the targets are close to a protected object or if they are
23 close to one's own units, the initial firing, the correction, would start
24 at the point which is away, on the side which is away from the protected
25 facility, with the assumption that the first projectile should not hit the
1 protected facility.
2 Q. And what do you do with any subsequent projectile?
3 A. And when you have a first hit, then you start getting closer and
4 closer to the actual target until you hit the centre of the target.
5 Q. So you kind of creep up on the target, if you want to --
6 A. Yes. We use such an example in order to avoid damage or
7 destruction of the protected building or harm to our own unit. So you
8 approach the target gradually.
9 Q. Now, sir, in your report you indicated that it was possible that
10 the Croats fired into the Old Town, but you said on page 27 that the
11 chances of this were, and I quote: "Very small and above all
12 theoretical." Why do you believe that there was little or no chance of
13 the Croats shelling the Old Town?
14 A. If we take into account the deployment of the JNA forces,
15 Zarkovica, Bosanka, and in the depth of the territory, only a gross error
16 in targeting those targets would result in hits on the Old Town. The
17 probability is very small, because the trajectories from the positions of
18 the Croatian forces towards the mentioned targets in Zarkovica and Bosanka
19 do not go over the Old Town, but they go to the left of the Old Town.
20 I would like to repeat that: Only a gross error could lead to
21 projectiles or a projectile hitting the Old Town.
22 Q. You mentioned Zarkovica and Bosanka firing toward the JNA forces
23 on those two places. What about if you're firing upon Mount Srdj?
24 A. I don't know whether the JNA was at Srdj. If it was there and
25 Srdj was fired upon, Srdj is even more to the left of the Old Town, and
1 from those positions, especially mortar positions, it's practically
2 impossible for shells to fall on the town.
3 Q. Speaking of shelling, let's discuss the persons known as fire
4 executors or fire controllers for mortars. Are you familiar with that
6 A. We usually call those people who execute the firing. That is a
7 person who determines the place of the target from an observation point,
8 issues the command to fire, monitors or observes the initial firing, makes
9 corrections, certain deviations and corrections until an average
10 projectile would hit the centre of the target. When an average shot would
11 then reach the centre of the target, then group firing would begin.
12 Q. Now, would those persons, those fire executors or controllers, are
13 they the ones who order the group firing? Are they the ones who order the
14 adjustments and the changes and modifications?
15 A. Fire executors are people who directly issued the order to
16 commence firing. Somebody has to instruct them to fire. They do not
17 decide by themselves to execute the fire. They do not decide when and
18 what they will fire at.
19 Q. When you say someone must -- someone must decide when and what
20 they'll fire at, they themselves do not execute the fire, are you talking
21 about the people, the operators of the mortars? Someone has to decide for
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that's the role of these --
25 A. A mortar unit does not decide by itself what it will fire at and
1 when it will fire. It has to receive orders to do so.
2 Q. Now, do these fire executors or fire controllers, do they use any
3 special equipment to aid them in their work?
4 A. Fire executors, in order to execute the firing, uses the equipment
5 and the instruments of communications. Reconnaissance instruments. He
6 uses an artillery compass, a laser target finder. It also uses a plotting
7 circle, a map, a hand compass, binoculars. He also uses communications
8 means to receive commands at the position.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner, I might have to ask you to finish off
11 the tendering of documents, et cetera, in the morning, given the hour.
12 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
13 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn for the evening. If you would be
14 able, Mr. Poje, to be present tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of May,
17 2004, at 9.00 a.m.