|TOPICS: New Perspectives on Spartan Education
- Marrou 14-25 ("Spartan Education")
of Nigel Kennell's book The Gymnasium of Virtue by Antony
Keen in the Bryn Mawr Classical Review
- #Kennell, Gymnasium of Virtue, pp. 115-148
- +Jean Ducat, "Perspectives
on Spartan Education in the Classical Period" in Hodkinson
and Powell (eds.), Sparta: New Perspectives (Swansea and
London, 1999) 43-66. Click here
for a Word document defining the Greek words used by Ducat.)
As you read Marrou, Kennell, and Ducat, take note of the ways in
which each of them modifies, expands, or compliments the picture of
Spartan education that emerged from our discussion on Thursday. What
parts of the conventional picture does each scholar question? Are
you convinced by their attempts (particularly Kennell's and Ducat's)
to change our thinking about the Spartan agoge?
In addition, consider the following specific questions:
- Do Marrou's ideological objections to the Spartan way of life
-- about which he is quite candid -- unduly influence his presentation
of the Spartan educational system? In your opinion, should Marrou,
as a scholar, be quite so open about how he feels?
- Ducat spends a great deal of space on the question of whether
Spartan education was essentially ritualistic. How does Ducat's
position on this question differ from Kennell's -- and do you find
Ducat's opinions on the "ritualist" position convincing?
- To what extent does education in our own time have the characteristics
of ritual? To what extent should ritual be a part of what
- What would you still like to know about education in Sparta that
you don't know? If you could have one question about Spartan education
answered, what would it be?
|TOPICS: Civic Education in Archaic Greece
- What are the features of "the old Athenian education"
as described by Marrou? What does Marrou indicate he believes happened
to that model of education as time went on?
- Does Griffith agree or disagree with Marrou about the changes
in Greek education that took place after the advent of schools?
- In what ways could Greek city states have "educated"
their citizens without having formal systems of education in place?
To what extent do the activities discussed by Griffith constitute
|TOPIC: Overview of School Education in Greece
- +Frederick A.G. Beck, "The Traditional Practice in Athenian
Education" in Greek Education 450-350 B.C. (New York,
1964) 72-146. (You will probably wish to read this first, and then
- Marrou, pp. 142-175.
- Review the schedule of suggested topics for the remainder of the
course for discussion on Monday.
Please consider the following questions with respect
to our seminar:
- Are there topics not included that the suggested schedule of topics
that you would like to see included? Do you have opinions, at this
point, on the orientation and structure of the seminar?
- Would you prefer more structured, formal discussions or do you
feel happy with discussions as they have been for the first three
weeks of the course?
- Would you prefer more lectures and formal presentations of the
material by the instructor?
- Which topics that have been alluded to in discussion or readings
thus far, or that appear on the schedule of suggested topics, most
intrigue you (and for which you might therefore like to lead discussion
or on which you might be interested in giving presentations)?
We will briefly discuss these issues in class on Monday. In addition,
you are encouraged to bring to class on Monday an anonymous, typed
mini-evaluation describing what you hope for from the rest of the
course and what modifications, if any, you might suggest to our approach..
I'll pass around an envelope to receive your evaluations.
|TOPIC: Physical Education
|READING/DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: (None announced)
|TOPIC: Musical Education
- Marrou pp. 133-141
- Plato, Laws 652a-674c (= Book II, pp. 1344-1364)
- What does Marrou think are the causes of music's decline in the
ancient curriculum? Why wouldn't Aristotle's recommendations on
music teaching (p. 139) have been followed as a matter of course?
Are there any parallels between the reasons for the declining educational
significance of ancient music and the diminution of music education
- Marrou (p. 140) treats as "quite absurd" the idea of
the ethical impact of music. Is he right? Is it not the
case that different styles of music have different emotional effects?
Might not those emotional effects have an educational,
- In the passage from the Laws that you read, how does
Plato define education? Is it an adequate definition? Can you think
of any sense in which you might agree with the statement that to
be educated is to be trained to take part in singing and dancing
- What does Plato seem to mean by the difference between good and
bad music, good and bad dances (655d-656a, for example)? Would you
draw any such distinction? What is Plato's objection to purely instrumental
- What kind of educational system does Plato envision? What role
does Plato think different members of society should play in education?
- At 662b-663e Plato argues that there is no distinction between
individual happiness and the practice of justice. What is the basis
for this argument? Does it make sense? If there is (contrary
to Plato) a difference between the two, should the education of
the child aim at his or her happiness, or at making him or her a
good and just person?
|[CLASS CANCELLED: READINGS AND DISCUSSIONS PUSHED
|TOPIC: Old and New Education
- Aristophanes, Clouds (start with pp. 7-13 of the introduction)
READING/DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: [Chris L. and Maggie]
- Strepsiades asks Socrates for instruction in the ‘worsest
argument’, (657) but Socrates says he needs more preliminary
studies of random topics. Are these studies just a comedic device,
or are they meant to stimulate Strepsiades’ unconditioned
- Strepsiades’ obsession with the worse argument is a reference
to Protagoras’ quote about a good rhetorician being able to
argue the weaker argument as the correct one. Should rhetoric teachers
be teaching students to debate unconditionally, or should they focus
on virtuous and morally pure arguments?
Follow up: Is Pheidippides’ debate that parents can be beaten
an exercise in rhetoric or morally corrupt?
- Socrates says that Pheidippides can learn better from the arguments
than from him (886). Is he just trying to blow off Pheidippides,
or does listening to debate really teach better than a teacher could?
- In scene XI, Strepsiades turns away the creditors by using some
of the questionable knowledge he received from Socrates. Has he
actually learned the art of rhetoric, or has he learned how to confuse
people like Socrates, or has he learned nothing at all?
|TOPIC: The Sophists
READING/DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: [Wil and Kasia]
- Is teaching worth paying for if you "cannot carry teachings
away in a separate container"? (314b)
- What does Protagoras claim to teach? How is this the same or different
than modern teachers?
- Define virtue (329-332). Is it truly a single thing, or does it
have many parts? If is has many parts, are they separate or do they
rely on each other?
- Does Socrates want Protagoras to speak less or himself to speak
more? Note how the two reverse roles in style of speech.
- Do either of the men produce coherent arguments? Or do the both
invalidate their own arguments by equating virtue with knowledge?
- Who "wins" the arguement, Socrates, Protagoras, or neither?
|TOPIC: Theorists of Education: Plato I
- Plato, Republic 376c (p. 1015) - 461e (p. 1089)
- This section of Plato's Republic begins with a long
discussion (roughly 377d-392b) of the kinds of poetry to which children
must not be exposed in the course of their education. What bad outcomes
does Plato fear from children's reading the wrong kind of poetry?
Have we seen these outcomes actually occurring anywhere in our other
readings so far? (With respect to this last question, you might
specifically consider the concern expressed by Socrates at 391e
in relation to events in Aristophanes' Clouds.) To what
extent does Plato go too far in his condemnation of the poets and
to what extent does he have a point? Should children be protected
from sympathetic portrayals of (for example) excessive grief (388)
or self-indulgence (390)?
- Although Plato wants to radically censor or rewrite the canon
of poets, and would even modify physical education somewhat (403c-404b),
he seems to embrace the traditional belief that education should
consist of music and athletics. What specific benefits does Plato
think these two activities will have? What role does each play in
the formation of the soul? (Especially relevant here are 410-411
and the intricate discussion at 439d-444.)
- Plato emphasizes (410b-412b) the need for a balance between physical
and musical education. Do his arguments resemble modern arguments
for "well-roundedness" in education? Why is it important
for a child to receive different kinds of training and instruction?
- Plato wants to keep children under constant observation and test
them relentlessly to weed out those not suited to be guardians (413c-414a).
To what extent is education, including modern education, really
a process of selection and tracking?
- Why does Plato believe women and men should receive the same education
(451c-456b). Do you take issue with any part of his argument? Why
is it important for men and women to be educated together?
- We saw last time that Plato was conflicted about whether or not
virtue/excellence/arete could be taught. What does he seem
to think in the Republic?
- Does the educational system envisioned by Plato resemble anything
we have seen so far in our study of ancient education, or is it
|TOPIC: Theorists of Education: Plato II and Aristotle
- Plato, Republic 502a (p.1123) - 541b (p. 1155) and +Aristotle,
- +Matthias Baltes, "Plato's
School, the Academy" Hermathena 155 (1993) 5-26.
(You actually do not need to read the extensive footnotes on pp.
READING/DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: TBA [Chris C. and
1) In Book VI (508), Socrates talks about the “form of the
good.” He also discusses what ‘the good’ is. Are
the ‘the good’ and the ‘form of the good’
the same or different? Can the perception of beauty, happiness, or
other so-called ‘good’ things be relative to the person
experiencing them, or are they absolute ‘goods’? Socrates
points out the sun in particular – what role does the sun play
when examining the relationship between ‘the good’ and
the ‘form of the good’?
2) Throughout Books VI and VII, Socrates and Glaucon discuss the
ideal ruler. Socrates says, “Any measure of such things that
falls short in any way of that which is is not good measure, for nothing
incomplete is the measure of anything” (504). How does this
statement relate to philosopher-kings and why they make for the best
rulers? What subjects must a philosopher-king have learned, and what
qualities must he possess? How do these subjects and qualities make
him more capable than others?
3) Is the existence of a philosopher-king really possible, or is
he just a dreamed-up, idealized ruler? Would such a philosopher feel
any commitment to rule, or would he rather dedicate his time solely
to philosophy? What does this say about the relationship between political
education and commitment to ruling?
4) In the cave allegory, education plays an important role. How?
What is the goal of education? What stages/divisions of the intelligible
are present, and how are they represented in the allegory? What role
do philosopher-kings play in this metaphor? Why must they go back
into the cave?
5) In what areas does Aristotle say citizens should be educated?
How do these areas help citizens develop in terms of their work, play,
and leisure time? How does music in particular affect leisure? Does
Aristotle regard leisure as a helpful, dangerous, or useless part
of a citizen’s day, or does it depend on how the citizen manages
his own leisure time?
6) One key difference between Plato and Aristotle’s curricula
is that Plato discusses the importance of arithmetic (and other areas
of mathematics), while Aristotle completely disregards it. Do you
feel arithmetic should have been included in Greek compulsory education?
|SPRING BREAK (NO CLASSES)
|TOPIC: Theorists of Education: Isocrates
- Marrou, "The Classical Tradition: Plato" and "The
Classical Tradition: Isocrates" pp. 61-91. (The chapter on
Plato will largely restate conclusions or review issues that have
come up in class: it can be skimmed with an eye to the last reading/discussion
question. The chapter on Isocrates should be read much more carefully.)
- +#Isocrates, Antidosis
(You can safely skip §§101-150. The introduction
is not necessary but may be helpful. You should know that "sykophant"
is a synonym for "slanderer" -- a pejorative term for
people who made a career out of attacking people in the Athenian
courts. You should also know that Marrou refers to this speech as
On Exchange as well as Antidosis -- these are
the same speech.)
[This week's classes will involve somewhat less discussion and somewhat
more lecture than usual. We will begin on Tuesday by briefly taking
up Book VIII of Aristotle's Politics, which we didn't cover
before break. Tuesday's discussion of Isocrates (with a look back
at Plato) may spill over into Thursday.]
- According to the Antidosis, what is Isocrates trying
to teach and to whom is he trying to teach it? What is the ultimate
aim of Isocratean education as Isocrates himself expresses it?
- What does Isocrates mean by "philosophy"?
- What does the analogy between physical training and "discourse"
(§§181-185) tell us about what Isocrates' ideas of education?
How does it help him argue against those who attack his educational
- Do you accept the idea (e.g. §§217-225) that a teacher
or an educational program could never become popular while corrupting
the young? Why or why not?
- Do you believe Isocrates' assertions (e.g. §§231-235;
275-280) that the best speakers are also the best and most intelligent
men? Why or why not? Are Isocrates' stated reasons for asserting
this really the same ones that Marrou (pp. 88-89, 90) ascribes to
- What are the essential differences between the educational programs
of Plato and Isocrates? On what points are they agreed? What features
of modern educational theory and practice does Marrou attribute
to Plato? To Isocrates? On the basis of your reading of Plato and
Isocrates, are you more or less sympathetic to these features?
|TOPIC: Isocrates; Summary of Classical Greek Theorists
READINGS: In addition to readings for 3/17,
look at +Moses Finley,
"The Heritage of Isocrates" in The Use and Abuse of
History (1975) 193-214. I think you'll find it interesting.
I strongly suggest skipping Section 1 and beginning on p. 195 with
See 3/18. Also: Consider also whether you agree with Finley that
the 2,400-year legacy of Isocrates in education needs to be modified
or abandoned in the face of modern social conditions. To the extent
that it has been modified or abandoned, is that a good thing?
|TOPIC: Education in Republican
READINGS: (I suggest doing them in this order)
- +Robin Barrow, "Early Roman Education," Greek and
Roman Education (1976) pp. 57-81.
- #Stanley Bonner, Education in Ancient Rome (1977) 3-64.
- How does early Roman education differ from early Greek education?
In what ways are they similar? Consider the aims of education (why
children are bring taught), the content of education (what
children are being taught), and the form of education (how
children are being taught).
- How do the differences between early Greek and Roman education
seem to reflect the differences between those two societies?
- In what respects did Rome modify the educational practices it
absorbed from the Greeks? How did those modifications reflect the
different needs of Roman society?
|TOPIC: Discipline in Ancient
Education / Pederasty in Ancient Education
READINGS ON DISCIPLINE:
- Marrou pp. 158-159 and 272-273.
- +Alan D. Booth, "Punishment,
Discipline and Riot in the Schools of Antiquity" Echos
du Monde Classique 17 (1973): 107-114 (Most of the Greek
in this short article is translated; some is not. Very little of
the Latin is translated. Skim the English, and don't worry about
the parts you can't read. Also, don't be too shocked by the fact
that the overall quality of the printing is low and that the Greek
is written in by hand: it was an era before the birth of desktop
"The Schoolmaster" (Mimiambi 3)
- +The series of short classical readings collected in this blog
post, especially Quintilian's criticism of corporal punishment
at the very end.
READINGS ON PEDERASTY:
- Marrou, "Pederasty in Classical Education," pp. 26-35.
- Plato, Symposium from 199e: (“ 'Now try to tell
me about love,' he said....”: p. 482) down to 212c (p.494).
- +Bruce Thornton, "Eros the Pedagogue" in Eros: The
Myth of Ancient Greek Sexuality (1997) 193-212 (especially
Thorton's summary of Plato's Phaedrus at 206-212).
DISCIPLINE [Nick B. and Wil]:
- “No progress without painful effort” Marrou goes as
far to say that this is not simply a commonly held belief, but in
fact a motto. Do you think progress can be attained without pain
- What do you think led to the transition between “To hold
the hand out for the cane” being synonymous in Latin with
“to study” to elders complaining “children nowadays
play as they learn”?
- After reading the blog, what do you think of the persistence of
corporal punishment throughout the majority of the educational timeline?
It is only recently that such punishment has been removed from public
schools. Do you feel like this is a step in the right direction?
Or is it further stripping the teacher of their already restricted
PEDERASTY [Kasia and Chris L.]:
- What is pederasty used to teach, and where was it common?
- The reading focused alot on outrage/shame versus self-control.
What was the difference and how was the outcome of the relationship
viewed based on which of those two (shame or self control) were
- Reciprocity is a common theme in Greek culture, and as we see,
pederasty. When has reciprocity gone too far, gotten shameful, or
- Was pederasty "an anti-feminine ideal of manliness",
or a release since women were shut out of education?
- Does pederastic behavior inspire feelings of vocation for teaching
in the elder, who calls for the student, or does it arise from the
tutor-student relationship established beforehand?
- Marrou asserts that pederasty among women (Sappho) was more human
and less transcendent than among men. Is Marrou perpetuating
the Greek ideal of love involving women as lower, or was the relationship
more similar than he says?
|5:30pm LECTURE: Dr. Robert Proctor, "From
Violence to Beauty: Roman Origins of the Liberal Arts"
|8:30am-9:30am BREAKFAST WITH VISITING LECTURER
DR. ROBERT PROCTOR
|TOPIC: [Continuation of Thursday's Topics; Discussion
of Issues Raised by Robert Proctor]
READINGS: [No New Readings]
|READING/DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: [See Questions for
|TOPIC: The Schools
- Marrou, pp. 194-205 ("Higher Education: Rhetoric") and
pp. 284-291 ("The Roman Schools: Higher Education)
- #Stanley Bonner, Education in Ancient Rome (1977) "The
Rhetoric Schools and Their Critics" pp. 65-75.
- Browse this web site, using
the "tree" of subjects in the left-hand frame, with special
attention to the pages under the heading "Rhetorical Pedagogy"
- Why do Marrou and Bonner think the study of rhetoric flourished
to such an extent at Rome? Do you get the impression that Marrou
is overstating the continuity between Greek and Latin oratory? Are
there significant ways in which the study of rhetoric at Rome seems
to have been different from the ways in which it was practiced by
- Who were "the critics of rhetoric," according
to Bonner and Marrou? What were their criticisms of the discipline?
- What do you think of the systematic nature of
rhetoric -- the organization of the discipline as described by Marrou
and Bonner and on the Silva Rhetoricae web site? Would you expect
the categories and classifications of rhetoric (in terms of the
arrangement of a speech, for example) to be helpful, or merely restrictive?
What about the pedogical techniques of progymnasmata, suasoriae
and controversiae, etc.?
- #Selections from De Oratore in Paul Monroe, Sourcebook
of Education for the Greek and Roman Period, pp. 421-444
- #Stanley Bonner, Education in Ancient Rome (1977) "Cicero
and the Ideal of Oratorical Education" pp. 76-89.
READING/DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: [Nick and Bekah]
1.) What is Cicero's definition of an orator? Can/Does this sort
of man exist today?
2.) "Writing is the said to be the best & most excellent
modeller & teacher of oratory." Would you agree? Are we learning
oratory when we write essays? If so, intentionally or unintentionally?
3.) Do you think Cicero is correct in arguing that oratory encompasses
philosophy? Is philosophy weaker for not communicating what it attains?
Is philosophy selfish more so than oratory?
4.) Does this change anyone's opinion on the liberal arts? Does it
justify the study of math, specific laws, etc. for anyone?
5.) John Ashcroft recently visited at Skidmore. What elements of
the orator did he exemplify?
6.) Do you agree with Cicero, Quintilian and Isocrates that mathematical
studies are necessary for a good orator, so as to develop skills in
orderly thinking and concentration?
7.) What do you consider to be virtues of good oratorical style?
8.) Crassus and Cicero are of the opinion that a good orator "must
be acquainted with the whole circle of the arts and sciences."
Antonius holds the opposing view that a good orator should focus on
specific, practical things so as not to get distracted. What do you
think about these different approaches to oratory?
READINGS: +#Selections from De Institutione
Oratoria in Paul Monroe, Sourcebook of Education for the
Greek and Roman Period, pp. 445-485 and 494-509
|READING/DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: [NONE ANNOUNCED]
|TOPIC: The Role of the Teacher
- +#Selections from De Institutione Oratoria in Paul Monroe,
Sourcebook of Education for the Greek and Roman Period, pp.
- +Ausonius, The Professors of Bordeaux:
Preface, I and II, VII-XII, XXI and XXII, XXV and XXVI
- +Juvenal, Satire 7 lines
150-243 (start with "Do you teach rhetoric?"). You
can ignore the Latin on the left-hand pages and just read the English!
READING/DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: [Nick and Chris
1) According to Quintilian, what qualities and capabilities must
good, successful teachers possess? Are these still sought after today?
2a) Quintilian argues that all teachers, even those teaching at the
lowest levels, must be well qualified. What reasons does he give for
this? Do you agree with his stance?
2b) How would Quintilian feel about the following statement from
Ausonius: "You weren't the brightest but one of the best"
3) In Ausonius' "The Professors of Bordeaux," teachers
are commended and thanked for the education they provided. How do
the views of teachers in this piece differ from the views included
in Juvenal's "Satire 7"?
4) Juvenal writes about the difficulties all teachers face. What
are these difficulties, and how are they similar to those faced by
5) “For the master ought not to speak to suit the taste of
his pupils, but the pupils to suit that of the master”-Quintilian,
p. 487 (section 13). Do you agree? Is it up to the student to understand
or the teacher to communicate clearly? If there’s a compromise,
to what degree?
6) “The less able a teacher is, the more obscure will he be.”-
Quintilian, p. 489 (section 9). Are the most famous teachers the best
7) Do we expect too much of the teacher? Is the system not providing
enough training/resources/privilege for the teacher, and is it even
possible to achieve the ideals put forth by the writers we’ve
read so far?
8) Is every teacher an “enriching” one as Ausonius claims?
Imagine writing a memoir in a similar fashion to Ausonius. Would your
conclusions reach the same end?
|TOPIC: The "Decadence"
of Roman Education
READING/DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: [Bekah and Maggie]
1. Petronius believes that a child's mind is left to waste in a public
school setting, do you think that modern day home schooling would
be Petronius' alternative for learning? Does Petronius' ideals for
the proper schooling effect students in a negative way?
2. Do you feel that good public speaking is based upon the volume
of people in an audience as it is stated by Messalla? If not, do you
feel the an audience effects an orator at all?
3. What does Messalla claim to be the reasons for the decline in eloquence?
Do you think some of these concerns are relevant today?
4. According to the Tacitus reading, how has practicing law affected
the quality of oratory since the time of the so-called ancients?
5. What is Aper's criticism of the evolution of poetry? Do you think
he is correct in his views? How does this compare to Petronius' thoughts
6. Why do you think Petronius blames the death of eloquence on rhetoricians?
|TOPIC: Christianization and
Later Influence of Ancient Education
- Marrou, pp. 314-350 ("Christianity and Classical Education,"
"Appearance of Christian Schools of the Mediaeval Type,"
and "The End of the School of Antiquity")
|READING/DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: NONE
|Presentation of Projects
|Presentation of Projects, Conclusion