From: George Murphy (email@example.com)
Date: Thu Dec 05 2002 - 23:08:33 EST
> In a message dated 12/5/02 9:05:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, firstname.lastname@example.org
> So when Israel recognizes in the story of its ancestor Jacob its own story,
> it sees that ambiguity - cleverness, the ability to outwit enemies &c, but
> also the dishonesty to which those traits are easily applied. & in any case,
> I think that trying to connect this part of the Jacob cycle with the story
> about his breeding of sheep in order to say something about the intelligence
> of Ashkenazi Jews is quite forced.
> You say when Israel recognizes - what is your reference in scripture?
> Israel recognizes it by telling the story of "Israel" as part of its story,
> part of the inspired witness to God's historical revelation. By repeating
> this story Israel
> confesses it to be its own story. That is done, e.g., whenever Israel tells
> the story of its past as part of its own confession of faith - e.g.,
> Who is Israel? You say dishonesty - where is the moral judgment against
> cunning to which you refer? or is it simply your interpretation?
> Do you consider lying to your blind old father so that you can steal the
> blessing he intends to give to your brother _honest_?
> You can characterize my interpretation as forced but my comments were correct
> regarding the scriptural account and the behavior of today's ashkenazi Jewry,
> and if not which of my remarks were incorrect? This is extremely important
> so please be specific.
> If A, B & C are all true, it doesn't follow that A + B => C .
> I didn't make the connection in the story. The connection is there. Jacob is
> outraged by Laban's switching of leah for rachel. Jacob retaliates by
> weakening laban's flocks and strengthening his own. Laban is his kin. What
> other justification does genesis provide for Jacob's action?
> There is no indication that Jacob's actions to get the flocks of Laban have
> anything to do with being "outraged" at the switch of Leah for Rachel - that
> is not
> mentioned in any of the relevant conversations 30:26-34, 31:4-16, or
> 31:36-54. Jacob is undoubtedly upset to begin with about getting Leah instead
> of Rachel,
> but he gets Rachel anyway after another week (29:27-30). There is no
> indication that any resentment about Laban's switch played a significant role
> in the later events. As far as "justification" is concerned, it's simply "He
> cheated me so I'll get what's coming to me by cheating him." Rather amoral
> but that's the way people behave.
> rich's response:
> But he had to work 7 more years for Rachel, and there are subsequent
> I maintain that when God predicted 'the elder shall serve the younger' he was
> referring to the fact that Jacob would come to his older brother's birthright
> because he was cunning and in this respect God approves of cunning. I also
> suggested that when Laban gave Leah to Jacob instead of the promised Rachel,
> Jacob was slighted because his next generation's birthright would go to the
> sons of a less vivacious, less spirited, less intelligent woman. Would it be
> more precise biologically to say a less vigorous woman? And that in this
> respect, Jacob understood the mechanisms of selection and how to breed
> vigorous sons and that the message of Jacob, stealer of birthrights is that
> there are no birth 'rights.' Birthright is won by cunning. I conclude
> intelligence/cunning is favored by God over birthright. The weakening of
> Laban's flocks is an analogy using the shepherd, the primary Biblical symbol,
> to illustrate the method one uses to maintain a desired trait (in men,
> intelligence, in sheep, general vigor) in a population, through good
> I add the following evidence which I had never noticed until receiving your
> response, George. After re-reading Genesis and parts of Exodus I found that
> the judgment of God is borne out perfectly in the sons of Jacob (see Genesis
> The sons of 'dull-eyed' Leah, Jacob's first wife imposed on him by Laban:
> Reuben, the first born defiles his father's concubine. His father says he
> will not excel.
> Simeon and Levi the next two sons of Leah have spades that become weapons of
> violence. They are cursed by their father.
> Judah sells Joseph into slavery and marries a Canaanite woman.
> The son of vivacious Rachel, second wife but the true intended mother of
> Jacob's first born:
> Rachel's firstborn, Joseph, who should rightfully have carried the birthright
> in Jacob's and God's eyes becomes counsel to the Pharoah through his greater
> intelligence and ruler of his older brothers and so - the elders serve the
> younger. Jacob's breeding skill with the flocks is reflected in his choice
> for first wife as manifest in the fate of his sons.
> It is precisely the same lesson to be drawn in the story of each generation,
> Jacob's generation and Joseph's generation. Breed for cunning. Cunning always
> wins out, even over physical violence. Even when your rightful inheritance is
> usurped cunning eventually reverses your position.
> I further suggest that the disparity in IQ between groups of deeply religious
> Ashkenazi Jews and the general population is the expected result of a
> 'Darwinian' interpretation of Genesis and an adherence to 'God's Law.' They
> are breeding their communities for high intelligence which is precisely the
> viewpoint of Jacob and God as described in Genesis and the judgment of God
> manifest in the differences between the fates of the sons of Leah and the
> sons of Rachel.
> To say that orthodox religious people would be doing anything but what they
> believe their Scriptures are telling them to do would be the departure from a
> rational parsimonious approach. The issue is what are the Scriptures saying?
> Wouldn't we expect to find orthodox behavior reflecting the wisdom of the
> texts? Above, I have told you what I believe the Scriptures are conveying
> when you consider the biological information embedded in the texts.
> Below is some information on Jewish social behaviors:
> "For 1,500 years Jewish society had been designed to produce intellectuals.
> ....Jewish society was geared to support them... rich merchants
> daughters;... quite suddenly, around the year 1800, this ancient and highly
> efficient social machine for the production of intellectuals began to shift
> its output. Instead of pouring all its products into the closed circuit of
> rabbinical studies;... it unleashed a significant and ever growing proportion
> of them into secular life. This was an event of shattering importance in
> world history."
> A History of the Jews, Paul Johnson, 1988, ppg.s 340-341
> "Taken together, the data suggest a mean IQ in the 117 range for Ashkenazi
> Jewish children, with a verbal IQ in the range of 125 and a performance IQ in
> the average range. These results, if correct, would indicate a difference of
> almost two standard deviations from the Caucasian mean in verbal IQ - exactly
> the type of intellectual ability that has been the focus of Jewish education
> and eugenic practices."
> A People That shall Dwell Alone, Judaism as a Group Evolutionary Strategy,
> Kevin MacDonald, p.190
> Breeding for intelligence is in the Bible and some people are still
> religiously devoted to it.
1. "Kung fu don't work on a twelve-gauge."
2. In your analysis of the blessing of Jacob you read in faults of
Judah which are in
fact not mentioned in the blessing itself & ignore the fact that he
is to be the ruler.
3. Much of your discussion involves reading things into the texts
that aren't there. I
have already given a number of examples of this - examples which you
ignore. I.e., what
you think the scriptures are conveying is largely what you are
putting into scripture.
4. I don't think it profitable to continue this discussion. You may
conclude if you
George L. Murphy
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