RG: "What is the explanation
for the fact that there are so many of these singing bowls? If from those three originals
. . . do they think that a lot of other pieces were made following after those?"
RG: "There's been a lot of
confusion in the West, because people have been trying to find out what these are for a
number of years. And because of . . ."
LLM: "Actually, he said that
now is many duplicates coming, and original is three in Tibet, he knows that. Now
someone's making small, you know, for offering water
5, water set, still using for water offering set, not using for eating
6 , in Tibet side. Now in India and Nepal
maybe their using, they don't know, and then so many duplicates coming they making. So now
using for uh, maybe their cooking bowl, or . . ."
RG: "Because they don't
LLM: "Yes, they don't know.
Actually this is only for sound. Now, he said that, in India during Buddha Shakyamuni's
life time. Because big one, very big and for singing. When many monks have to make a puja,
or meeting, or something, at that time at first they use a gong, for gonging. Boom, boom.
Then all the monks are coming. If someone has 'god ear', I mean that Arhat has perfect
ear. If they are far away, even they can listen."
RG: "So they have the ability
to hear this sound at great distances."
LLM: "Yes. From far
away they come to Buddha's place. Even sometime it's giving sound naturally, you know,
maybe winds or . . ."
LLM: "Yes, vibration.
Big winds coming, it's giving sound. Actually it can be by Buddha, you know Buddha's
action. He's . . . when he's meditating . . . his action, you know, giving to the
RG: "Through his
energy . . ."
LLM: " . . . energy,
goes to this sound. Goes to singing bowl, or drum, and it's giving sound. And all gods,
and higher beings, all the disciples can hear this giving teaching on this sound,
meditation on this sound. So there, each different beings have different teachings by this
sound. Yes, sometimes Buddhas don't give teachings by speech from mouth, you know, from
heart, all energy goes to that singing things are giving sound. So those sounds are also
Buddha's action or Buddha's energy giving teaching. Sometimes Buddhas don't act by
physical body but he's giving by energy."
through other means."
LLM: "Transmission to
"Now the Karmapa,
when he was alive, heard a group of Westerners playing these singing bowls, they played
for him. And the Karmapa himself, he said that this sound of the singing bowl is the sound
of the Void
7. What do you think he
meant by that?"
LLM: "Most people
they don't know, just their listening for sound. Someone who has emptiness, meditation,
samadhi, definitely they get teaching from those singing bowls."
RG: "So you think
these singing bowls were made in eastern Tibet, near the Chinese border, what previously
was the Chinese border?"
LLM: "Chinese border.
Lama Leshe says that this quality is very top quality, many different jewels are inside,
gold, silver, so many different jewels are mixed in this. Before they had one set of
offering bowls, we call 'Mego Gutsag'. If we see like this nine heads, it's really very
RG: "And what would
these heads be?"
LLM: "They say 'Mego
Gutsag'. They had two factories there, one is in Jang and one is in Hor. Jang made its
sign, nine head is the sign of Jang, from that factory. Hor has most . . . Hor their
making so many beating marks, so that means it's made from Hor."
RG: "This nine head,
this would be cut into the metal? How is it put in the metal? It's like the maker's sign,
LLM: "No, no. If you
look at it from the side it looks like nine, nine heads, one on top of the other. We can
see them, very smooth. One have like this, one has like this. So nine is, we can see . .
RG: "Like on
Padmasambhava's staff, how they have the three heads, one on top of the other."
LLM: "Yes, yes."
noticed he was just looking at this bowl for something. He was looking to see if he could
see anything there? He was looking at the bottom, examining the bottom very carefully. A
lot of these bowls being very old and worn . . . the beating marks."
LLM: "Yes, beating marks. It
definitely comes from Hor because of the beating marks."
RG: "So this was
previously a famous metal working center before the Chinese invaded?"
LLM: "Famous before
the Chinese invaded Tibet. Hor was famous. Nobody can reproduce this quality."
RG: "So do you think
that this technique, who ever had the secret of making them, is now lost?"
LLM: "I think so.
Very long time ago."
RG: "How old is he,
Lama Lobsang Leshe, actually? Does he know approximately how old he is?"
RG: "Because in our
inquiries, of trying to get this information on Tibetan singing bowls, originally we asked
Ama-la, and she also . . . How old is Ama-la now?"
RG: "I've been trying
to find out any information about these singing bowls for over eight years now. And
inquiring here in Asia in many places, researching in books and libraries, in the great
museums of the world . . ."
LLM: "When he was
young, he had many teachers older than him, they said it, so he heard, you know. They had
one set of seven singing bowls, nine headed, they call Jang. They said it's really
valuable, and be careful, don't touch to child, you know. If they broke, it's very
difficult to get. Because he said that at that time there's four kings ruling in Tibet
side. After that they made Jang and Hor."
RG: "At this time I'm
wondering what is the significance that this singing bowl and this sound is going to the
West. Padmasambhava said that 'When the iron bird flies, the Dharma will be spread to the
West.' So, I've been feeling for many years now that somehow this sound is important for
the world because the sound is the sound of the Dharma. And it carries the Dharma, whether
people realize it or not, because in my experience with many types of people, whether
Buddhists or non-Buddhists, young people and very old people, everybody is attracted to
this sound. And specifically, they can't exactly say why, but they like to hear this
sound. So this is very appreciated in the Western world.
Now that the Dharma is becoming so strong
in the Western world my intuitive feeling is that, somehow, this sound has some importance
for the world today. That maybe in this time, it has been written that things will become
more difficult, that one race of people will try to take over the world. And that the
enlightened beings will then gather in this place Shambhala. I think there's kind of a
connection to this sound and Shambhala. That's my feeling, I don't know. I think that
somehow the ringing of these bells, of this sound, will somehow gather that positive
energy, that force, you see, in order to fight back against those people who are trying to
destroy the world."
RG: "If this is the
sound of the Void, and the sound of the Dharma, then in ringing these bells this is
bringing the force of the Dharma . . ."
LLM: "If somebody has
seeds of Dharma, Westerner or Easterner, doesn't matter, you know . . ."
RG: "Then this will
awaken that seed, this sound?"
LLM: "Yes, if so
Dharma goes to the West, Guru Padmasambhava said that 'Dharma goes to West' means that
definitely they have seeds. Of course, you know, all sentient beings have enlightened
beings seeds, nature of Dharma, of Buddha, you know, really. So, before all teaching is
Asia, most teachings in Asia. So, actually, yes, yes. Also, Buddha is not in the world
now, this world. So many other worlds his presentation now, he's giving teaching. So,
Buddha is not here, but his Dharma is here. So, singing bowl can give teaching to someone
who has the seeds of Dharma. Each sentient being has many different natures, many
different 'ears'. That's why, yes of course, singing bowl can give you Dharma. Really have
that connection of that Buddha or Shambhala, same you know, really connection of singing
bowl or those sounds connection to the Shambhala. Means singing bowl sound gives you
teaching then you can go to Shambhala. That is really the connection.
Now Buddha is not here but singing bowl is.
Someone who can play the singing bowl, really, immediately you can get Buddha's teaching.
Then you can meditate on this teaching, or sound, with bell you can become enlightened.
Singing bowl sound, and bell sound, and tingshaw sound is incredible really. Not like
those ordinary sounds."
RG: "Yes, yes, that's
what I've been feeling all along. Because the sounds of these instruments are unlike any
other instrument in the world. Quite an incredible quality."
LLM: "That's why the
bell, those singing bowls are . . . just ordinary people didn't make them you know, they
come from Buddha's side. Someone who hears it ring, a formless being, or a form being, or
. . . doesn't matter, you know. If you ring a bell, if you didn't get any teaching but
other beings . . . in this house has many sentient beings also without form can hear it,
the sound. And they can have teaching."
RG: "So it not only
affects the person who's using it, but also it affects all of the surrounding area. And
actually the sound carries very far even when we can't physically hear it."
LLM: "Yes. Also, when
we play the tingshaw all spirits, hungry ghosts are coming, but we didn't see those
beings. From thousands of kilometers away, they can hear this sound, coming saying
'Oh, something's there!' So, the sound is incredible."
RG: "So we can say
that these things are tools, they are tools for transformation, to transform our ordinary
being into a higher realm of the Buddha nature. We can say that?"
LLM: "Yes, we can say
that. Also, you know outside of the Buddha someone without speech giving teaching, what is
this you know? By action, body action8
they didn't speak, those Arhats you know. Buddha was not in the world time, Arhat is
coming. They the Arhats giving teaching, but without sound, just showing body. Someone who
has seeds they are, immediately they get teaching. So same, same way. If you are ringing
the singing bowl, if you didn't get teaching, but someone get teaching. So, why we made
those singing bowls, why we make a bells, and cymbals, drums, conch, why you know? Each
things giving different teachings. Also conch gives you lot of big voice giving."
RG: "Big sound,
LLM: "Sound, you
know, big sound. Conch sound is only for Dharma using, you know. For calling monks, or
making pujas. So, we call that Dharmachakra, sound of conch, we say like this. Even Buddha
Shakyamuni after his enlightenment, for 49 days he didn't give any teaching. He knows he's
enlightened but sentient beings they didn't know he's enlightened. So, he's really sad,
you know. He thought 'Now I better go to the forest, nobody knows my truth.' So the head
of the gods, and king of the gods said: 'Please give teaching'. And he's giving conch, you
know, and that means Dharmachakra. Also, he plays that a waaaaaa conch, giving sound that
means Dharmachakra giving. That's why he's giving . . . otherwise he can give another or
something you know. Because Dharmachakra . . . conch sound is Dharmachakra."
RG: "So, in the
tradition of Buddhism even from the very beginning, from the first teaching of Buddha,
there is that tradition of using sound in connection with teaching?"
LLM: "Yes. So he gave
the teaching of the Four Noble Truths, the first teaching. Also, if we play the singing
bowl some Arhat is here, really they can have many teachings, emptiness and broadness,
very deep teachings they're having. Of course. Actually, this sound wang, wang, wang,
wang, wang, means emptiness, empty, empty, empty, empty. Emptiness teaching is the top of
teaching, Buddha's essence. Essence of Buddha's teaching, yes, Buddha's teaching. Means .
. . what does essence of Buddha's teaching mean? This is Emptiness teaching, top one. If
one who has bodhicitta already, if you get bodhicitta already, but you didn't get
Emptiness teaching, you never get enlightened, you'll never get enlightenment."
LLL: "Guru Urgyen
Rinpoche says that one time coming his text, teachings, putting in the ground. One time
coming, then one guy coming, one being's coming to take this . . ."
RG: "To rediscover
this hidden text."
LLM: "Hidden text,
RG: "So in a way this
could be a rediscovery of something that's been hidden for some years now. Because it
seems that a lot of people that I've asked don't know about this."
LLM: "They don't
RG: "So maybe in this
present age this is the time when this is right for this to be rediscovered."
LLM: "They don't know
but if they are hearing this sound then they like it. Something happy, you know."
RG: "Yes, yes,
there's an attraction there."
LLM: "Really. It's a
very peaceful sound giving. That is, you know, Guru Rinpoche said already before."
RG: "So actually
these are very precious things that we have to preserve very carefully."
LLM: "Yes. So singing
bowl who discovered in West? Who? It's just natural. Tibet's time's coming. Otherwise who
will discover singing bowls sound? Natural coming, even more and more now, increasing
Dharma and all singing bowls sound, meditation, all goes to Dharma in West."
interesting. Well I'm hoping that at sometime somebody will find some of these hidden
texts that will really tell us how to use this singing bowl, in the mean time we just kind
of have to sit peacefully, sit quietly, and let our intuitive feelings tell us how to use
LLM: "Also, maybe
after we go to Tibet, you go to Tibet side. Also one relic singing bowl is still there
RG: "Yes, I'd like to
LLM: "Yes, you can
see this and you can ask to those who are in charge of singing bowl. Also, most older
monks they knows about singing bowls. This time, like me the young monks, they don't know.
They say 'What is this?' you know."
RG: "Yes, that's why
it's been so difficult to find this information."
Dalai Lama literally
means "Ocean of Wisdom." He is the spiritual and temporal leader of Tibet. The
Dalai Lama is a God King, being the physical manifestation of Avalokitesvara (Tibetan:
Chenrezig), God of Compassion. The present Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyaltso, is the 14th
2 According to the Tibetan
Mahayana tradition, there have been many Buddhas in the past, and many more to come in the
future. The next coming Buddha is known as "Maitreya". It is interesting to note
that one translation of the name Maitreya is "harmonic resonance"!
According to Tibetan sources
singing bowls are reputed to be made of an alloy consisting of (depending upon who one is
talking to) five, seven, or nine different metals. Legends state that one of these metals
is meteorite iron. It has been hypothesized that this use of meteorite iron may be one of
the reasons why Tibetan bells have such amazing sounds. As the meteorites found in Tibet
have traveled through a thinner layer of oxygen there would have been less burn-up of the
meteorite iron, hence the meteorites found there may have a quality different than any
others found in the world.
Before this interview, Lama
Leshe stated that he had seen over four thousand monks at one time playing singing bell
bowls during a religious ceremony at Drepung Monastery.
This refers to the Tibetan
custom of offering water placed in seven bowls on the alter each morning. This is done
both in monasteries and in homes, as each household has it's own alter. Although it is
conceivable that small singing bowls could be used for water offerings, the traditional
shape of water offering bowls is much different than that of any singing bowl.
While doing research
throughout the Himalayas over the last nine years have also asked many Nepalese about
the usage of singing bell bowls. A number of times the persons questioned have stated that
these bowls were used as eating bowls. It seems that the Nepalese not knowing of the
Tibetan traditional usage of the bowls, as instruments for producing sound, simple put
them to use as utilitarian objects.
7 According to Henry Wolf. See
album notes, TIBETAN BELLS II, by Henry Wolf and Nancy Hennings, (c) 1979, Pacific Arts
This refers to the usage of
hand and body gestures (Sanskrit: mudra) symbolic of different Dharma concepts. This is
similar to using sign language.
9 Dharmachakra means "the
wheel of the Law". This refers to the first teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha (see Four
Noble Truths) at which time he put the wheel (chakra) of the law (Dharma) into motion.
Hidden texts are one of the
eighteen types of hidden treasure (Tib. derma) which Padmasambhava is said to have hidden
inside caves, mountains, etc. These texts contain valuable teachings and information which
were hidden in order to preserve them for a future time when they would be needed.