adrianus wrote:Apologies to Qimmik but I say that when an Italian pronounces a double l, you hear separate l's in the different syllables in cal-li-dus and not just a long l, and that's a good way of pronouncing latin. But there's no law to stop you using a long l. Calidus would be pronounced ca-li-dus, a different sound.
Me excuses, Qimmik, at tibi non concurro. Non est lex quae prohibet at meliùs latinè l duplicem sonare ut italicé, id est, per duas litteras, uteramque in suâ syllabâ, non per l litteram singulam prolixam. Calidus ca-li-dus sonatur quod aliter est quam callidus.
A.A.I wrote:I found a video with an Italian reading minimal pairs from Italian. (Not in the context of speech, but useful.)
adrianus wrote:Note the difference in English: "fell low" versus "fellow". There doesn't need to be silence between "fell" and "low". The faster you talk, the less the difference.
adrianus wrote:...plus diminuit discrimen.
adrianus wrote:A double l sound has a continuous sound but it has a different l sound at the start indicating a syllable end and another l sound at the end indicating a syllable start. To describe the -ll- sound as a long l is not accurate. Revisit http://www.adrianmallon.com/latin/callidus.htm for an additional thing on "palla" spoken by the Italian speaker in the earlier reference.
Est continuus sonus duarum l litterarum at variat sonus intrá, cuius prima pars finem syllabae indicat et terminans aliam syllabam incipientem. Id est, sonus in toto l duplicem non l singulam indicat. Redi nunc ad paginam http://www.adrianmallon.com/latin/callidus.htm enim pro addititiis meis.
Corrigendum: "diminuitur discrimen" ut dicis, Godmy, vel "diminuis discrimen"
adrianus wrote:I am Irish.
The Italian speaker who pronounces "palla" was from the reference by A.A.I. above. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-r_l5vgBoY
The illustration of the word "palla" by the unsuspecting Italian speaker originated in an audio editor.
A.A.I wrote:In the Italian, there doesn't seem to be the same distinctions as in Latin. I'm hearing long V + single C and short V preceding the doubles - except some seems to stand out more (ss, nn, perhaps others).
That what I imagined the AL transitional sounds and the LA transitional sounds to convey in corresponding to syllable ends and starts in pal-la. But they don't do it in a way that differs from the AL transitional sound in pa-la. I thought I could hear it but not after that little editing experiment.Godmy wrote:But I think that to hear the "L"s really as two would be visible in terms of volume. There would have to be a sudden descension (a decrease), then almost a silence and 'ascension' (an increase) again - even if veeery short. Otherwise I cannot imagine it much...
Sic imaginavi sonus AL et LA deflectentes in italicè pal-la communicare dissimile modo quam in pa-la. Experimentum priùs citatum mihi aliter demonstrat.
Qimmik wrote:If I'm not mistaken (and I really know very little about acoustical phonetics) the spectrogram represents frequency plotted against time. The fact that there are two frequency peaks in the spectrogram doesn't necessarily mean that the tongue touches the alveolar ridge twice in articulating the double consonant ll, does it?
Qimmik wrote:Thanks for your kind words, Godmy. I generally try to avoid spreading misinformation on the internet...
Qimmik wrote:Sharpening my knowledge: by looking up questions in the reference books and not relying on my memory, I often find that my memory was faulty--or else I learn something extraneous to the question itself that I didn't know (or had forgotten).
A.A.I wrote:I'm just not understanding "double consonants", it seems. Thought I had it down pretty well but now I just can't seem to separate the vowel length.
short V + long C / long V + long C, just end up sounding identical.
I don't have a list of minimal pairs but I'd love to see such a list recorded. (Trying to collect words from some books now...)
I'm just not understanding "double consonants", it seems. Thought I had it down pretty well but now I just can't seem to separate the vowel length.
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